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Italian Electrickery
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stubaker58
Sunny Felixstowe
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April 30, 2019 - 10:48 pm
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As well as the Bantam I also acquired a small Benelli 125 which I have been cleaning up and sorting out.  It’s pretty much back together and is looking good with plenty of patina!

My problem now is the electrics.  I’ve attached a copy of the wiring diagram .... can someone who understands these things confirm that the ignition should work without a battery with the power coming direct from the generator.  Am I also correct in thinking that the ignition is switched off by being earthed at the switch?

And ...

Does this all mean that if I connect up only the red generator wire to the coil and earth the coil I should get a spark?

Many thanks

Stuart

D7D21339-1934-4EF6-A72D-34385D4168E6.jpeg

D7/14 hybrid (4 speed with D7 crank etc.) on the road, D10 Bushman awaiting rebuilding.

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mikef
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April 30, 2019 - 11:20 pm
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Hi Stubaker.
       Yes, I think that you are correct that you only need the red wire from the generator to the coil to get a spark. I am assuming that the points and condenser are located inside the generator. Having a quick look at that switch I would think that you are also correct in thinking that the ignition is switched of by earthing the red wire, rosso connected to blanco. Just one cornetto !!
Mike.

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stubaker58
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May 1, 2019 - 7:19 am
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Thanks Mike, that made me laugh!

Yes you’re correct points etc are within the generator, something which makes cleaning and adjusting the points a pain.  I’ll have a go at connecting things up tonight and see what happens. Then on to the carburettor.

D7/14 hybrid (4 speed with D7 crank etc.) on the road, D10 Bushman awaiting rebuilding.

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johnsullivan
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May 1, 2019 - 8:16 am
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If you tried to make it cheaper....the resistor is a pain only form of current control ..so if bulbs go phutt..Italian is a beautiful language though..avvisatore acustico that vital device without which Italian traffic would never move.

67 D10. and a D7    2007 Honda Hornet FA. 93 Yamaha TTR 250 Raid, Sinnis SC 125. 78 Honda 90  75 Montesa Cota 247 an electric scooter of Famous make.

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cocorico
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May 1, 2019 - 8:34 am
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johnsullivan said
...Italian is a beautiful language though..avvisatore acustico that vital device without which Italian traffic would never move.  

I have heard that the switch used for the above device is normally closed, ie you press it to stop the horn. wink

To get back to your questions, on my Morinis the ignition is cut by earthing the output of what is basically a magneto coil. Not sure about Mike's statement that Rosso is earthed to Bianco though, If I read the diagram correctly, in the off position, Rosso is connected through the switch to earth, then switch position one connects Bianco and Nero (possibly ignition only), with position two providing ignition and lights.

My memory is not what it used to be, though - and my memory is going, too.

The Bantam Club Forum - all the answers are in there.

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Cornish Rooster
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May 1, 2019 - 8:56 am
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Looks like a very similar set up as my Gilera 150 Arcore had when I first bought it, the points were "hidden" behind the generator and the ignition switch had a few earth's connected to it which cut the ignition. Also the headlamp was direct from the generator with most of the rest coming from the battery (6 volt by the way), very Bantam like !

I fitted a ** Please log in to view ** Ignition/generator and when I fitted it I simplified the whole set up, the ignition on this is self generating (doesn't need the battery) and I wired up every thing else through the battery so I had lights etc even with the engine off, its been there for quite a few years now and is a excellent set up, down side I suppose is that these kits cost around 300 quid but pay your money take your choice. Think they do a kit for Benelli's by the way.

Phil

BSA Bantam D1 "150" in use regularly often as general purpose transport, quite a few other bikes as well. Cornwall Area Rep. 

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stubaker58
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May 1, 2019 - 11:22 am
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Thanks All,

Very helpful.

I’ll try as is to start with but first is to see if there’s a spark.  

I’ve spruced up the rest of the wiring with new cables where needed and re-connecting the switch as per the diagram (it had obviously suffered a short at some time as blue live wire had melted (!), the white earth wire re imagined as the live and a separate ignition switch fitted in the side panel.  The original switch had also been araldited, looking like it had been broken in two).

The powerdynamo route is attractive but, despite everything, the current generator etc looks to be in good order, the bike being low mileage which I think is genuine as it looks to me as if it had been dropped onto its right (witness marks on grips, footrest, rear brake adjuster) which broke the gear change shaft where the lever attaches making it unrideable. Fortunately I was able to source a replacement NOS shaft and it’s now back together.

I’ll keep you posted.

D7/14 hybrid (4 speed with D7 crank etc.) on the road, D10 Bushman awaiting rebuilding.

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johnsullivan
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May 1, 2019 - 11:26 am
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I think actually the ignition is put on by grounding. My Ducati Monza did this.Going for a lie down now I've had Guzzi/s too.People mock Lucas.....

67 D10. and a D7    2007 Honda Hornet FA. 93 Yamaha TTR 250 Raid, Sinnis SC 125. 78 Honda 90  75 Montesa Cota 247 an electric scooter of Famous make.

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stubaker58
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May 1, 2019 - 9:13 pm
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Well, against all the odds, with two manky bits of wire and a connecting block I have a spark and I didn’t need to turn the garage light off to see it! Whether it is happening at the right time is another question entirely although, given what I think is the reason for the bike being laid up, I haven’t touched the engine itself, so here’s hoping .... I should have time over the weekend to fit the petrol tank and have a go at starting it.

(pictures to follow)

D7/14 hybrid (4 speed with D7 crank etc.) on the road, D10 Bushman awaiting rebuilding.

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johnsullivan
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May 1, 2019 - 9:45 pm
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I read that first as <I didn't need to turn the garage light ON.]..thought that would be about right for the Marelli system..

67 D10. and a D7    2007 Honda Hornet FA. 93 Yamaha TTR 250 Raid, Sinnis SC 125. 78 Honda 90  75 Montesa Cota 247 an electric scooter of Famous make.

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stubaker58
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May 4, 2019 - 10:42 pm
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Well I’ve refitted most of the loom and it’s all coming together but now that the coil is connected to the ignition/light switch ... no spark.  I’ll go back to wiring the coil direct to see if the engine will run and I’ll look into the switch which is in a poor way but seems to be unobtainable new or even used.

A couple of other questions ..

am I right in thinking the diagram above shows negative earth? And

what sort of capacity battery am I likely to need, is 4Ah likely to be enough?

thanks again.

D7/14 hybrid (4 speed with D7 crank etc.) on the road, D10 Bushman awaiting rebuilding.

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richard hyatt
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May 5, 2019 - 6:28 am
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Hi Stuart

I have had a look at the diagram and I reckon/assume that the red / rosso is connected to the points and condenser in the flywheel magneto.

if so , then the HT coil is fired/supplied with AC voltage from the magneto

the silicon diode H is a simple means of rectifying the AC output from the flywheel magneto to enable the magneto to charge the battery with +

this makes your bike NEG earth(although it is a nightmare to work it out!! if you follow BIANCO from the battery into the switch then it goes across to an EARTH symbol at 2 o'clock. (I think)

there is no regulation of the output/charge other than the resistor C

there are very simple/cheap Chinese voltage regulator/rectifier on the market to simplify this process

I don't know if you need festoon bulbs for your lights 6 v 3 watts for side and tail and 6 v 5 watts for the stop (scootopia in Weston super mare have them for classic scooters)

 

i'll try to attach a diagram for youD7D21339-1934-4EF6-A72D-34385D4168E6_LI.jpgD7D21339-1934-4EF6-A72D-34385D4168E6.jpg

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johnsullivan
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May 5, 2019 - 11:33 am
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which model is yours?** Please log in to view **

67 D10. and a D7    2007 Honda Hornet FA. 93 Yamaha TTR 250 Raid, Sinnis SC 125. 78 Honda 90  75 Montesa Cota 247 an electric scooter of Famous make.

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mikef
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May 5, 2019 - 12:22 pm
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Hi Stubaker.
           You had a spark before connecting the red wire from the coil to the ignition switch. That suggests that something is wrong with the wiring around the ignition switch. Would probably be a good idea to remove the connection to the ignition switch and see if the spark returns.
When the ignition switch is in the off position the red wire should be earthed. That shorts the points to ground and kills the spark.
Mike.

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stubaker58
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May 5, 2019 - 5:18 pm
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Hi John,

Sadly none of those manuals quite hits the spot! I’ve used them for parts assembly diagrams and so forth.  The very bottom one comes closest but the actual model is a Sport Special, mines a 125 but they also came as a 250.  I managed to get an original 250 manual on EBay, and the wiring diagram matches what I’ve got perfectly.

 

Hi Mike,

I thought so too and yes when I disconnect the ‘rosso’ Wire from the switch the spark returns.  I think now it’s the painstaking process of going through the switch to track down which connections are made in which positions, I’m not very good at being methodical but I’ll try my best! Clearly at present the switch is not braking the earth contact when in the on position.

 

I don’t know if the rest of the switch works as I don’t have a battery yet, I think I will go for a 4Ah lead acid variety as without proper regulation of the voltage I understand a gel battery may be problematic.

 

Thanks for all the help guys.

D7/14 hybrid (4 speed with D7 crank etc.) on the road, D10 Bushman awaiting rebuilding.

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stubaker58
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May 5, 2019 - 5:24 pm
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D7/14 hybrid (4 speed with D7 crank etc.) on the road, D10 Bushman awaiting rebuilding.

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stubaker58
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May 5, 2019 - 5:26 pm
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Trying on new tinware.ADA02261-5E9B-4CB2-9CF2-32BE14C481E9.jpeg

D7/14 hybrid (4 speed with D7 crank etc.) on the road, D10 Bushman awaiting rebuilding.

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BonesCDI
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May 5, 2019 - 10:25 pm
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Is that a Ducati tank? Lovely looking bike with either tank.

Bones

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