A A A
Avatar

Please consider registering
Guest

Search

— Forum Scope —






— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

Register Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
Timing a B175
Avatar
Alan
Oxford
Second Gear User
Club Member
Forum Posts: 16
Member Since:
March 8, 2019
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
October 22, 2021 - 2:24 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

I'm sure this query has been covered before, but I cannot find a reference to it, so if someone could point me in the right direction I would  be grateful.

I have just fitted Electrex World Electronic Ignition to my 1970-built B175. Their instruction say to set the timing to 19 degrees before TDC, while the Bantam manual states it should be 16.5 degrees.

Is the difference because of the Electric design, or should it be 16.5?

I set it to 19 and could not get it to start. Reset to 16.5, and it did start after a while, but now won't. It may just be flooded but I just would like some guidance as to what timing setting to use with the Electrex kit.

Avatar
cocorico
Central France
Top Gear User
Site Member
Forum Posts: 3559
Member Since:
June 23, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
October 22, 2021 - 2:31 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

You need to use the search formula given to you by Stoo on your intro (or any other new member). ** Please log in to view **

Avatar
Alan
Oxford
Second Gear User
Club Member
Forum Posts: 16
Member Since:
March 8, 2019
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
October 22, 2021 - 11:06 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Thanks for that advice. That's the first I've heard about a search formula. I'll go through the previous threads.

Avatar
Sponge
Lancashire (A chip shop somewhere near Preston)
Top Gear User
Club Member
Forum Posts: 754
Member Since:
November 6, 2016
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
October 22, 2021 - 11:46 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi Alan, I have a B175 into which I have fitted the Electrex world CDI system. I have set it to 19 degees BTDC as stated in the instruction set and have found it somewhat difficult to start unless I use full choke, a handfull of throttle and a good tickle. However, it does start after a few kicks and then it runs really nicely and pulling well in all gears. There is no pinking and the engine runs quite cool which would indicate that the timing is correct. A tendency to 4 stroke on the over-run is due to pilot jet carburation I think.

I think that the EW CDI has an inbuilt timing curve which is linked to engine revs. The std setup, with points and coil, uses totally static timing.

I am quite happy to leave it at 19 degrees BTDC.

Avatar
cocorico
Central France
Top Gear User
Site Member
Forum Posts: 3559
Member Since:
June 23, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
October 23, 2021 - 7:06 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Acrhodes said
Thanks for that advice. That's the first I've heard about a search formula. I'll go through the previous threads.  

 
Ah. I see why, you didn’t introduce yourself  when joining the forum, as recommended. If you had you would have received the ”information pack”.

In your browser, type:  your query site:bsabantamclub.com/forum. Where your query could be b175 timing, sidestand, electrex, etc

Avatar
Stoo63
GLASGOW
Area Rep
Forum Posts: 1372
Member Since:
April 19, 2018
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
6
October 23, 2021 - 9:23 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi alan, this is the genertic welcome with advice for new users.

You will find just about everything you could ever want on the Forum via the FAQs and technical sections;  ** Please log in to view **

Have a really good nose around the forum and enjoy yourself. Looking forward to seeing your progress.

Good Luck!

All the best,

Stewart

'49 LE; '50 D1 Lucas; '55 D3 Battery; '58 Square Four (project); '59 D1 direct lighting; '60 5TA; '62 BSA Sunbeam; '72 Mobylette; '76 FS1-E; 

Avatar
mike p5xbx
E-Sussex
Top Gear User
Site Member
Forum Posts: 1688
Member Since:
June 15, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
October 23, 2021 - 4:57 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Electronic ignition normally has a built in advance/retard timing curve
so you really need to check it at the FA (fully advanced) setting with a timing light and then see how far that is before TDC

tim-curve.jpg

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments

D? - D10- D14 Bantams 350 AJS -500 Triumph http://bsanotru.....lfire.com/

Avatar
Alan
Oxford
Second Gear User
Club Member
Forum Posts: 16
Member Since:
March 8, 2019
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
8
October 23, 2021 - 7:17 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Thanks all, very much - all very helpful. Thanks Sponge for the specific guidance and explanation, the Electric system is cleverer than I realised. I will reset to 19 degrees and try and start it as you suggest.

Avatar
Alan
Oxford
Second Gear User
Club Member
Forum Posts: 16
Member Since:
March 8, 2019
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
9
October 29, 2021 - 11:20 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Well, I have reset the Electrex timing to 19 degrees and eventually got the bike started. I managed a short run and it seemed OK, possibly a bit brisker.

The next day I had more time for a longer run but I could not get it to start - it seemed absolutely dead. Eventually I gave up, dried off the plug and drained the crankcase and let it vent for a bit. I then went through the same cold start procedure, tickle the carb, full choke, and it started first kick.

It is certainly accelerating more briskly and seems to rev more freely. It went up my local "test" hill noticeably more easily and I feel it would probably go faster if I tried! It sounds different too. After about 25 mile run I checked the plug and it was still clean.

So, I can feel the difference in running, but it is far too difficult to start. Do you think it might be worth retarding the ignition say 1 degree and see how that is?

Avatar
Sponge
Lancashire (A chip shop somewhere near Preston)
Top Gear User
Club Member
Forum Posts: 754
Member Since:
November 6, 2016
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10
October 29, 2021 - 3:47 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi Mate, so I am having similar problems getting my B175 started up when it is cold. It starts fine when warm or even slightly warm. 

I wouldn't go so far as to say that this is a known problem but I m convinced that the cold starting problem lies with the nature of the spark that is put out by the CDI  system. You will note that when the plug is laid against the cylinder head the spark is really difficult to see, being very short duration and high powered but it is definately there as confirmed with the transistor radio test. 

My D10A has all of its original WIPAC ignition system...it puts out a great big fat blue spark and guess what ? It starts 1st or 2nd kick from totally cold. Once warm it suffers from points bounce at high revs which acts as a performance limiter.

So I don't think the problem is ignition timing...I think it is that the spark is barely enough to ignite the mixture when everything is cold. 

I double checked my spark plug and discovered thst it was still set to 25thou. That is too much for a CDI so I reset the plug to 12 thou and the cold starting is definately improved but I noted that there was a very slight misfire at high revs which had not been there before. I have now settled on 18 thou and it runs fine but have, so far, not had a free day to start it up from cold. Perhaps this Sunday ?

My take on this is that all my bikes have different cold start routines and manners. So long as the fuel is turned on my D7 starts no matter what, even when I don't want it to !! The D10A starts 1st or 2nd kick but I am having to experiment and learn a new routine for the B175. Happy days. Once it is warmed up it runs like a little rocket clean all the way through the rev range.

Suggest leave your ign at 19 BTDC, check your plug and try a few different cold start routines.  My B175 likes a really good tickle and a handful of throttle to get it fired up. 

Sponge

Avatar
Sponge
Lancashire (A chip shop somewhere near Preston)
Top Gear User
Club Member
Forum Posts: 754
Member Since:
November 6, 2016
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
11
October 30, 2021 - 7:57 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Some more ramblings from The Sponge on this EW and B175 cold start conundrum. 

The B175 took a lot of persuasion this morning. It was a chilly morning here in the almost frozen North. About 25 kicks to get a 'burp' than it coughed into life with a cheeky cackle. I made myself a coffee and sat down to ponder this thread.

I used to own a big 500cc BSA pre unit single and that had a manual advance/retard lever on the bars. I had to retard the ignition to start it up cold and then advance the ignition once under way to get the optimum performance from it. It was fun to mess with the lever whilst riding along a long straight road to see how different settings affected the 'mood' of the engine.

I  do buy into this theory about retarding the ignition to get it started but then the fussy rigmarole of re-setting the timing after each cold start....not good. it will compromise road performance. 

So this gets me thinking about how to fit a manual advance and retard mechanism to a 4 speed bantam with CDI ? Is it possible, even as a short term measure to prove a point. The aim being to improve starting without compromising its road performance. 

Sunny described his patent method with a piece of wood for the 3 speed engines and what a great test rig it turned out to be but the anatomy of the B175 is more subtle. 

So using the power of groupthink..unit averages etc has anybody got any ideas ?

Avatar
cocorico
Central France
Top Gear User
Site Member
Forum Posts: 3559
Member Since:
June 23, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
12
October 30, 2021 - 8:41 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Well, the easiest (to my mind), and by far the cheapest, is to stick with the original system. So many of the posts on this sort of subject point out that a well set up original system works under all conditions, with the bonus of being fixable at the roadside. Reconditioned parts are available and rotors can be remagnetised for less than electronic systems. out-a-here

Avatar
Alan
Oxford
Second Gear User
Club Member
Forum Posts: 16
Member Since:
March 8, 2019
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13
October 30, 2021 - 2:04 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Thanks for all your thoughts Sponge. I had wondered about the plug gap so I might reduce it a bit as an experiment. Depending on how that goes I will try retarding the ignition a bit to see if that helps. It's going to be a compromise between starting and running - just as the original static timing system is.

Avatar
AdrianS
Harlaston Staffs
Top Gear User
Site Member
Forum Posts: 174
Member Since:
August 8, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
14
October 30, 2021 - 7:38 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

I also have no problems with the original points system. My bike starts very easily and runs well. Roadside repairs are possible.

all my previous Bantams started and ran well with the standard set up. If the bike didn’t start or run well, there was something (usually simple) to fix.

I believe the 12 v conversions also start easier and run well but I’ve kept mine as a 6v system.

Avatar
Sponge
Lancashire (A chip shop somewhere near Preston)
Top Gear User
Club Member
Forum Posts: 754
Member Since:
November 6, 2016
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
15
October 31, 2021 - 12:01 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

When I started with this particular B175 it had no electricals whatsoever. I wanted to keep it to coil and points ignition but when I costed up a new Lucas Alternator, regulator, coil, points, battery etc etc it came to a lot more than the cost of a complete EW CGI unit. Albeit with a high output alternator and upgraded 12 electricals etc.

So thats how I ended up with the EW system and re-used a AGM battery that I had removed from another bike. 

The EW system works well when the bike is on the road. It runs very well and pulls through the gears as well as any B175 I have ever owned. 

When taking into account the total costs of both systems, to include the special LED bulbs and S41 switch I reckon both systems would cost about the same. Had I understood that at the onset I would have gone with the Lucas electrics, conventional bulbs and a modern regulator. For the reasons above, and improved starting, it would have been fine. 

However I can see nothing wrong with the EW 4 Speed set up except that if it fails it would not be user repairable

Avatar
not henpecked
Near Junction 11 of M42 Leicestershire
Top Gear User
Club Member
Forum Posts: 297
Member Since:
February 7, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
16
October 31, 2021 - 8:30 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hmm

This thread has been very interesting especially since I was contemplating fitting an EW system to my B175. The only reason was to run without a battery and rely on the alternator for lights. However, I think I'm sticking with having converted to 12 volt negative earth, Reg/Rec with points.

I have seen at first hand the system advertised in the Bantam Banter since I go to the South Derbyshire & Nottingham Section. The original test bike ran very well and from what I've been told the CDI/alternator unit generates more power than the EW unit. I will be chasing up John who supplies the units since I have Bushman that will be converted to a CDI unit.

More later.......

B175, on the road. Honda XBR 500, and ....... Suzuki Burgman 200 scoot! Nicknamed "The hair dryer" - by me I hasten to add; & great storage under the seat when you get to your destination.

Avatar
Sponge
Lancashire (A chip shop somewhere near Preston)
Top Gear User
Club Member
Forum Posts: 754
Member Since:
November 6, 2016
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
17
October 31, 2021 - 9:17 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Another consideration with a CHI fitment is finding places and mountings for all the additional bits:

The coil is a different shape to the WIPAC coil so it needs to be mounted someplace. I put mine up under the fuel tank between the headstock gussets. You will need to locate the actual control unit...I put it inside the air filter housing along with the flasher unit and the fuse box. The regulator is mounted under the seat where the rectifier used to go.

Using a Lucas S41 switch greatly simplifies the wiring loom. 

Using a new Lucas high power alternator and a 12 v coil, regulator and  battery setup implies no additional mountings, except indicators, but you end up with the capacity to run really powerful lights and other accessories such as a phone charger and satnav etc. Plus you get the big fat blue sparks for easy cold starting.

Serious winter riders might be tempted towards the Lucas 12V conversion.

Avatar
cocorico
Central France
Top Gear User
Site Member
Forum Posts: 3559
Member Since:
June 23, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
18
November 1, 2021 - 6:36 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Serious winter riders  deserve our sympathy and some  counselling...whistleget-me-coat

Avatar
Sponge
Lancashire (A chip shop somewhere near Preston)
Top Gear User
Club Member
Forum Posts: 754
Member Since:
November 6, 2016
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
19
November 1, 2021 - 8:08 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Agree with that, especially so with the congestion levels here in the North West. Nevertheless there are still quite a few 'old school' classic bike riders to be spotted on winter weekends. 

Avatar
not henpecked
Near Junction 11 of M42 Leicestershire
Top Gear User
Club Member
Forum Posts: 297
Member Since:
February 7, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
20
November 8, 2021 - 8:49 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi All

The more later bit......

I'm now in complete reverse..... Due to circumstance beyond my control (isn't it always!) the Bushman I was going to convert to CDI with 12 volt negative earth is going back to 6 volt with Energy Transfer Coil and direct lighting.

I have just started a another topic with a query of the suitability of a Triumph energy transfer coil since I'm sure the one I have is dead - have a look....

B175, on the road. Honda XBR 500, and ....... Suzuki Burgman 200 scoot! Nicknamed "The hair dryer" - by me I hasten to add; & great storage under the seat when you get to your destination.

Forum Timezone: Europe/London

Most Users Ever Online: 223

Currently Online:
10 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

cocorico: 3559

Cornish Rooster: 2917

Blue Heeler: 2434

bart: 2433

David Dale: 2144

Sprung Chicken: 2121

sunny: 1929

Piquet: 1846

Mags 1: 1753

mike p5xbx: 1688

Newest Members:

Cemoto

Forum Stats:

Groups: 9

Forums: 48

Topics: 10915

Posts: 96046

 

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 1367

Members: 3506

Moderators: 0

Admins: 3

Administrators: Bantam-Super, JMD, Stoo63