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rear brake plate
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KC1961
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October 20, 2020 - 5:45 pm
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It was pointed out to me recently that the rear brake arm on my D14 should be above the spindle and not below it. I've since been looking at  pictures of D14s and haven't seen any with a brake plate loke mine. I'm now assuming that mine's is wrong (not that I'm likely to go looking for the correct one).  Can anyone confirm this?DSCN0289.JPG

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cocorico
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October 20, 2020 - 5:56 pm
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Go to Bantam150 via LINKS, where there is a d14 manual which shows the rear brake plate, it may be in the Members Area too.

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Sponge
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October 20, 2020 - 6:29 pm
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Need to see where your torque arm is bolted to. Can you describe where it bolts to the swinging arm or send a picture taken  from futher away please. 

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KC1961
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October 20, 2020 - 7:12 pm
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Hi Sponge,

It's bolted to the same swinging arm fixing/lug as the "proper" one bolts to in the pictures that I've looked at. I'm not able to get another photo up just now.

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sunny
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October 20, 2020 - 7:23 pm
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the  Triumph  M/C do  stick  up  &  low   rear  brack  arms   

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BASIL
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October 21, 2020 - 8:53 am
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Hi, it looks to me from your picture you might have a B175 front brake plate on there, I think I may have a correct one for you machine in my shed if you are looking for one. Regards Basil.

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chippy
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October 21, 2020 - 10:31 am
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I agree with Sunny , I believe that to belong to a Triumph tiger Cub.

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KC1961
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October 23, 2020 - 2:47 pm
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Thanks for all replies. It seems my assumption that mine is wrong was right(!). Quite happy to leave it that way.

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Ringting
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October 24, 2020 - 10:52 pm
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Hi KC. 

That's the same as mine and what's shown in the parts book so I think It's correct.

Alan.

D1, D14/4, Guzzi LeMans, Triumph Trident 900, Maserati 160 t4. Mk1 Mini Traveller, Berkeley T60.

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Sponge
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October 26, 2020 - 11:00 am
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This got me thinking........so I went and checked all my bikes and spare wheels s and guess what ?

All rear wheels from D7,D10 and B175 models have the brake arm/cam above and to the right of the chain adjuster but my D14 back wheel has it as shown - underneath.  This brake works better than the others  - I wonder why.   I also wonder if it has a different cam and might explain away some poor performing back brakes that I have come across in the past.  

Assertion ( open to critique here guys ...)  did they put a different brake plate on a D14/4 production run (Perhaps left over from the Bantam Cub production run ?). 

In my opinion it works a little better than the other way around - but that could be because of several factors.   Any thoughts ?

Sponge   

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chippy
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October 26, 2020 - 2:36 pm
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Hi sponge, which way is your d14 lever pointing upwards or down as in the picture if upwards the the cam would work on the outside edge of the leading brake shoe which would improve leverage, the standard bantam set up with the lever downwards the outside part of the cam pushes against the trailing shoe, by drawing a simple sketch of the set up should become self explanetry, although I'm not sure how noticeable the difference in braking would be.

Regards Chippy

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Alan.Moore
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October 26, 2020 - 5:01 pm
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I came across this article on the web which supports what Chippy has posted and also gives an insight into other aspects of why some brakes work better than others. It took me a few read throughs to get it all straight in my mind but i think its a worthwhile read

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Cheers

Alan

1939 Ariel VH, 1942 Ariel WNG, 1951 Triumph 6T Thunderbird, 1970 BSA Bantam B175, 1980 Honda CB250N, 1986 Yamaha SRX600

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Alan.Moore
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October 26, 2020 - 6:49 pm
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Sponge said

Assertion ( open to critique here guys ...)  did they put a different brake plate on a D14/4 production run (Perhaps left over from the Bantam Cub production run ?). 

Sponge     

Here are my thoughts / ramblings:

That brake plate photo from KC1691 certainly looks like the Triumph T20 Tiger Cub one shown on Draganfly's site.

Tigercub-brake-plate.JPG

The yellow arrow points to where the fixed pivot is riveted in and the orange to where the 'normal' high arm Bantam fixed pivot would have been (so this plate has two round head rivets where the normal Bantam plate has just one).

Drags site shows two brake plates for the T20, the one pictured above 37-1365 for 60-68 (I think this should be 66) and 90-6223 for 66-69 T20B, which is the same part number as the D7, D10 and D14...the one with the high arm.

Looks to me like the early one 37-1365 is a modified Bantam one...hence the second round head rivet to blank off where the Bantam fixed pivot would have been and the relocated fixed pivot to match the low arm location. Then in 66 when the T20B came out they changed to the standard Bantam one 90-6223 with the high arm.

Sponge: So...when the D14 was being produced from 1968 they were already using the Bantam High arm plate on the Cub so it would be unusual for them to be fitting the 2 year old design at that time. However, maybe they found a box full of them and stuck them on the D14 line bikes thinking

Cheers

Alan

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1939 Ariel VH, 1942 Ariel WNG, 1951 Triumph 6T Thunderbird, 1970 BSA Bantam B175, 1980 Honda CB250N, 1986 Yamaha SRX600

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stubaker58
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October 26, 2020 - 10:28 pm
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Very interesting!

My front brake (D7 forks etc) has been ok but not great. Following what the article says about an arm that pulls against the direction of wheel travel being more effective ... is it possible (in theory at least) to build up a lightweight fork front end with the brake plate on the left rather than the right? The fork sliders would need to swap over but would it work? Has anyone tried it? Or am I going stir crazy?!

D7/14 hybrid (4 speed with D7 crank etc.) on the road, D10 Bushman awaiting rebuilding.

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Sponge
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October 27, 2020 - 10:20 am
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Health Warning - I am not a brake and friction engineer and would never advise or encourage anybody to modify,  or to mess about,  with their stock brakes.  What follows is not, therefore, advise - it is merely a report of things I have learned, considered and observed about D7/D10/D14 Bantam front brakes.   ( B175 brakes are a different discussion).    

Have any of you Bantam Greasers riding around with your hair on fire and bugs in your teeth ever noticed that your front brake works better backwards then it does forwards ? On a well adjusted, well maintained front brake this should not be too noticable but if it is very marked effect then you might need to attend to your brakes.  

Stubaker58 mate.  In answer to the question...... In theory it is possible to put the brake plate on the left and hence take advantage of having a single leading shoe brake but you would have to do some solid engineering to ensure it was safe and functional. 

On the D7/D10/D14 front end the problem will lie with the brake plate anchor strap which sits behind the right hand bottom fork leg and ensures that the brake plate does not rotate when you slam your anchors on whilst fast approaching the horrors of the Schwenkreuze on the Nordschlieffe of the Nurburgring.   If you were to assemble your forks the other way around then this anchor strap will be on the front of the fork leg and with a risk of slipping out under hard braking with potentially lethal results ( too painful to even consider). The relative geometry of the front brake plate may also need some engineering to make it work and possibly some work on the friction surfaces themselves.  However with some thoughtful engineering it ought to be possible.  I have seen Bantams with the front brakes on the left in my distant past but didn't take much notice of the details............  is it worth it ?

If you want to (need to) change the performance of your front brake there are some other options open to you.   

Another option is to re-route your front brake cable to the front in order to give you an upwards pull on the reversed brake arm. This gives the desired single leading shoe effect and thus improves your brakes. This retains the R/H brake plate and only implies a bit of engineering on the front brake plate itself and the cable routing. Worth consideration and once more, in the past I have seen it on Bantams, in particular trials bikes,  but didn't take much notice other than seeing it.  

Another option to consider is to engineer some floating shoes. This is where the brake shoes are modified (ground down) to float on the cams and pivots when the brake is applied.  Thus self centering. This was the BSA solution to the single trailing shoe abysmal brakes on the A10/A65 transition in the early 60s.  They simply switched to floating shoes on the brakes and after a bit of burnishing (bedding in)  the improvement was noticable.   Once again this is feasible on a bantam and with some skill and care it might be possible to engineer some floating shoes which will improve matters a lot without having to take a hacksaw and a welding torch to your brake plate and your lower fork legs.   I am currently looking into doing this with my D10A.  I have never spoken to anybody who has done this with a Bantam so please be aware. I have, however, fitted floating shoes on my A10 and they are a massive improvement.  

To me the most interesting option would be to engineer a twin leading shoe brake plate from a std brake plate.  This gives a leading edge for each brake shoe. I have never seen it done on a Bantam but have heard speak of people who have, and,  for me, it offers the most workable solution. I bet there is a club member out there who has done this and I would be very interested in the results,. You would probably need to start with two complete brake plates as it would require an additional brake cam and some degree of design for the new front brake cable.  But in the hands of the right engineer is feasible.  It is a pity Eddie Dow isn't still around - he would have nailed this.  

Please also consider that if your front brake is working better it will probably get hotter - especially on the Nurburgring - it may warp or blister, or on the Nurburgring,  two-up with a load of Lowenbrau and Bratwurst on the back .... even catch fire.... so worth a bit of consideration during teh planning stages. 

Another good option is to make sure your existing brake is working properly. This can be achieved by having a specialist skim your drum to true and match a pair of shoes and linings to it. You will be surprised at how much difference this makes to a std brake set up, especially after a wheel re-build.  There are various people/outfits who can do this.   I think that this is the reality of my D14 rear brake that works so well. It is a good true hub with matched, well burnished shoes. 

Once again - please don't mess with your brakes unless you really know what you are up to and even then get it inspected by a motorcycle engineer to make sure it is all safe.  I accept no responsibility if you and your old-lady end up in the hedge (or the river, or the A&E dept or the local graveyard, or Colditdz !!) as a result of re-engineering your front brake.     

As always - very happy to be critique'd, shot down in flames, laughed out of my pram or abused - whats new - as a fat kid I am well used to it.  

 

Sponge

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

                    

     

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not henpecked
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October 27, 2020 - 11:37 am
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Hi All

This morning I tootoled into the garage and looked at the rear brake on my B175. The set up is the same as KC 1961 and for the record is capable of locking up the rear wheel which in my opinion is more than adequate.

Since this thread has now moved onto the front brake, the front brake on my B175 is adequate but when riding thinking ahead is essential. I have seen two Bantams where the brake plate had been modified to a twin leading shoe set up. This was at Hoar Park not far from Atherstone, West Midlands and was about 4 years ago. Speaking to the owner at the time just before he rode off in a blue haze, he said it stops better than it goes. Unfortunately I didn't get any pictures or further details since he was about to leave - pity!

What he did say he wasn't a memer of the Bantam Club but of the BSA OC. So if anybody is also a member of the esteemed club a general query might get results. I am not a member of the BSA OC.

I'm not sure of the D7, D10, D14 front brake set up but from what Sponge has said bear in mind that the torque arm is (I assume) in tension. Swaping the brake to the other side (again, I assume) puts the arm in compression. Not desirable!

And finally, I read with interest all sorts of items on the forum and will only comment if it of use to other members - hopefully.

B175, on the road. Honda XBR 500, and ....... Suzuki Burgman 200 scoot! Nicknamed "The hair dryer" - by me I hasten to add; & great storage under the seat when you get to your destination.

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stubaker58
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October 27, 2020 - 12:01 pm
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Thanks both,

I knew it couldn’t be that easy! Very thorough Sponge, I’d forgotten about the reversal of the torque clamp. I await any further comment on a TLS solution.  Until then I’ll continue to ride defensively and look a long way ahead to anticipate hazards.  Good advice about the skimming and matching shoes too.

Thanks

D7/14 hybrid (4 speed with D7 crank etc.) on the road, D10 Bushman awaiting rebuilding.

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Number6
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October 27, 2020 - 11:04 pm
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Alan.Moore said
I came across this article on the web which supports what Chippy has posted and also gives an insight into other aspects of why some brakes work better than others. It took me a few read throughs to get it all straight in my mind but i think its a worthwhile read

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Cheers

Alan  

http://livinginthepast-audioweb.co.uk/imagex/misc/hand-point-up.gif THIS

You can do a simple experiment, as I did, with the brake plate in your hand, repeatedly operate the lever then observe the movements of the shoes, it will become apparent that the one actuated by the "inner end of the cam" (nearest the centre) will move its shoe a greater distance than the other.

This is why on my D1, and similarly equipped, this corresponds to the leading shoe on the back, but the trailing shoe on the front.

Solution, wait for the front to bed in (however long that takes) or take a file to the trailing shoe.

http://livinginthepast-audioweb.co.uk/imagex/misc/4chsmu1.gif

Mike H --

Murphy's 4th law of motion states that any small object that is accidentally dropped will immediately hide itself under a larger object.

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neddyo
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November 10, 2020 - 5:49 am
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I did see a D1 where the front hub had been cut and another brake drum half had been welded on to make a double sided

front hub. The cable set up was as per Vincent with a balance bar and 2 cables going to the brake levers.

I waited an hour but the owner did not show up.

Nick

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