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D10/14 generator, can they be refurbished?
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stubaker58
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January 6, 2020 - 9:43 pm
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F027E8C8-09FB-4225-A0CD-B4242D9B3C0B.jpeg705CC883-EF97-4701-9A72-A169F9921DBF.jpegDE0019E0-8440-4B8D-BBCA-0BFEA954D427.jpegCE293B10-10FE-4F4D-8890-CDA82AB99932.jpeg

Hi,

in preparation for the rebuild of my D10 Bushman engine I’ve been looking at my collection of Wipac generators. They’re all in a bit of a state but are at least complete. 

My question is can they be refurbished by a guy in a shed (me)? I know I could replace with a new Lucas or an electronic ignition but where’s the fun in that?

I can see how to take the stator apart, clean it and reassemble it but my question is about the insulation. Each coil is wrapped in what looks like sellotape and then encased in what looks like cardboard (the original former the wire was wound round?). Are there suitable replacement materials?  And what type of adhesive would stand up to the harsh environment?

Any advice gratefully received.

Regards.

D7/14 hybrid (4 speed with D7 crank etc.) on the road, D10 Bushman awaiting rebuilding.

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SpacedMarine
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January 6, 2020 - 10:13 pm
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I think it's some kind of varnish.It just goes like selotape after 50 years.HTH.

What's 7/16 in mm again?

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mikef
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January 6, 2020 - 10:26 pm
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Hi Stu.
      It is possible to wind a coil like that by hand but takes patience. That cardboard stuff is known as leatheroid (sounds like an advanced stage of piles).
You would need a former to wind it round and then soak it in transformer varnish.
The correct gauge of wire and number of turns is obviously important. I have never wound one myself so not sure of the detail but just remember a bit of transformer theory from my college days, that was a long time ago.
Mike.

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stubaker58
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January 7, 2020 - 7:19 am
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Thanks guys.

My aim is to make two working generators from the five(!) I’ve got.  I think I’ll have enough unbroken coils but the state of their insulation is ‘variable’ so I’d like to be able to give them a refresh with the correct materials. I don’t envisage winding any new coils, although I know there have been posts about doing this. It’s more a case of dismantling, checking continuity, cleaning, re-varnishing and reassembly with new ‘output’ wiring and heat resistance sheathing.  I should say that my grasp of electrics is basic to say the least, I’m really approaching this as a mechanical issue.

I’m off to investigate transformer varnish and leatheroid! 

D7/14 hybrid (4 speed with D7 crank etc.) on the road, D10 Bushman awaiting rebuilding.

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cocorico
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January 7, 2020 - 8:18 am
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Varnished copper wire (magnet wire) is easily available. eg ** Please log in to view **

You can also buy it with fluxed varnish to make the soldering of the ends easier. If you are willing to sacrifice one coil, you can measure the length required per coil, together with the gauge of the wire. As they are lighting coils they will not be very long, so can be wound manually. I think the hardest part would b e finding or making a former. I have been considering winding 'formerless' coils around a suitable wooden core, then wrapping the stator cores with something like PTFE tape as a cushion and fixing with hot melt glue - just not got round to it.

I have wound a source coil for the CDI on a Morini successfully - that consisted of hundreds of turns of very fine copper, for which I used a modified hand grinder and a ban on visitors for an hour or so! You can see an article about it on the Dutch Moto Morini Club site if interested. ** Please log in to view **

A lighting / charging coil should be a much easier task.

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SpacedMarine
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January 8, 2020 - 10:51 am
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Interesting stuff coco.I understand the basic principle not the in depth theory though.Just wondering if you made a new stator plate and added a few coils would you be able to use the old rotor and get a bit more power out of it as I know on the more modern alternators they have way more than the 6 coils on a bantam.just thinking out loud 😀

What's 7/16 in mm again?

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cocorico
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January 8, 2020 - 12:49 pm
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SpacedMarine said
...if you made a new stator plate and added a few coils would you be able to use the old rotor and get a bit more power out of it ...

Hijack alert! Sounds possible - though making a new stator plate could be interesting. You would either need to cut out several soft iron 'spiders' then rivet them together, or cut a complete one from the solid, which is about 10mm thick on a Bantam. Knowing your penchant for machining cranks and shafts, you might prefer to adapt a shaft to fit a proprietary modern rotor and stator plate like this ** Please log in to view **

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stubaker58
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January 8, 2020 - 12:53 pm
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Ok, I’ve got transformer varnish, kapton tape, 1mm Tufnol sheet and shrink wrap in green, yellow and orange on order.  Total cost including postage just under twenty quid (£19.64 to be precise).  

Plan A is to dismantle two of my stators, clean up the laminated cores & revarnish them. Then check the coils, rewrap with the kapton tape and make up replacement formers from the tufnol where needed.  Finally I’ll add on the shrink wrap and re-solder the connections.  I’ll update progress later in the week.

D7/14 hybrid (4 speed with D7 crank etc.) on the road, D10 Bushman awaiting rebuilding.

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SpacedMarine
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January 8, 2020 - 1:23 pm
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stubaker58 said
Ok, I’ve got transformer varnish, kapton tape, 1mm Tufnol sheet and shrink wrap in green, yellow and orange on order.  Total cost including postage just under twenty quid (£19.64 to be precise).  

Plan A is to dismantle two of my stators, clean up the laminated cores & revarnish them. Then check the coils, rewrap with the kapton tape and make up replacement formers from the tufnol where needed.  Finally I’ll add on the shrink wrap and re-solder the connections.  I’ll update progress later in the week.  

I shall be watching with great interest 👍🏼

What's 7/16 in mm again?

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Stoo63
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January 8, 2020 - 1:26 pm
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Great project, Stu. I'm sure many members have these kind of issues and will be watching with interest. 

 '55 D3 Battery; '58 Square Four (project); '59 D1 direct lighting plunger; '59 Tiger Cub; '60 5TA;  '76 FS1-E; '91 GTR 1000;  '97 Honda Sky SGX50.

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cocorico
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January 8, 2020 - 1:52 pm
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Some in progress pics would be interesting. Are the laminations varnished? I didn't think so and can think of no reason why they should be, besides which, the whole lot is earthed by the mounting bolts.

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mike p5xbx
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January 8, 2020 - 4:47 pm
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SpacedMarine said
Just wondering if you made a new stator plate and added a few coils would you be able to use the old rotor and get a bit more power out of it as I know on the more modern alternators they have way more than the 6 coils on a bantam.just thinking out loud 😀  

I have toyed with the idea of fitting a Lucas RM24 3Phase alternator they have 9 coils and 180watt output, and much higher output at low RPM
bit overkill for a Bantam perhaps and sucking precious bhp from the engine

D? - D10- D14 Bantams 350 AJS -500 Triumph http://bsanotru.....lfire.com/

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SpacedMarine
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January 8, 2020 - 5:54 pm
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mike p5xbx said

I have toyed with the idea of fitting a Lucas RM24 3Phase alternator they have 9 coils and 180watt output, and much higher output at low RPM
bit overkill for a Bantam perhaps and sucking precious bhp from the engine  

Dont want to thread hijack but was looking at the scooter type ones coco linked.They all seem to have pickup coils on them for the ignition timing I'm assuming you could just bin that though.Plus I couldn't find power ratings for them.I did find a "wassel" jobby on Ebay but was super expensive. 

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What's 7/16 in mm again?

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stubaker58
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March 30, 2020 - 7:41 pm
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597DC769-687E-4A1C-BD6C-2E6F3A57CDDF.jpeg

Well it’s taken some time but I’ve finally made some progress on my generator refurbishment (it’s an ill wind and all that).

I should just reiterate that I’m no electrical expert in fact I’m approaching this from the mechanical angle seeking to get everything clean, firmly attached and with sound electrical connections.

Having dismantled one of the many generators I’ve got I set about cleaning up the laminated steel stator plate and gently de-burred any edges where there was a small raised edge.  A good rub down with wire wool and a clean with meths brought some brightness back and stripped the varnish off it.  The clips that hold each coil were given a similar treatment but rather less successfully.  The coils themselves were gently cleaned, just getting the worst of the dirt off them and were then bound with kapton tape.

I then had the task of making up six formers for the coils.  The very ragged originals seem to be of cardboard or at least something very like it.  Using a craft grade board I cut out six blanks (see plan below), scored them and by folding them into a triangular tube shape inserted them into each coil.  It was then simply(!) a matter of folding the tabs around the coil and securing them with more kapton tape.  I have also begun the task of replacing the well worn heat resistant insulation but haven’t got the correct range of colours to complete the task so I’ve come to a temporary halt.

Initial impressions are that it all looks a lot better than it did when I started. Once the additional heat shrink arrives I’ve got to consult my photo’s and compare with my other generators to work out the connections.  My intention is then to varnish (using transformer varnish) the stator, firmly attach the coils and wiring, using a little more varnish to help hold things in place.

Ill keep you posted.

(BTW this genny is for my D10 Bushman project, which will be rather less impressive than Simons.  I’ve got the swinging arm bushes fitted, just awaiting an adjustable reamer so that I can get the frame back together, after that it’s just nuts and bolts!)

 

C3D23BB7-3052-4E30-8257-8DA8F10A3BF0.jpeg9B1E0391-E327-48E6-A67C-6CD4B950BCA9.jpeg

D7/14 hybrid (4 speed with D7 crank etc.) on the road, D10 Bushman awaiting rebuilding.

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stubaker58
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March 30, 2020 - 8:01 pm
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DBD83EB4-2270-4FDA-B235-49645F88DFA4.jpegBE96BBB9-42A6-40ED-A46B-C6E6945F4D43.jpeg

This is what the formers look like, sorry it’s on edge.  An original and the dimensions for the new, it’s asymmetric so that when folding it around the coil the short tab sits under the longer one.

D7/14 hybrid (4 speed with D7 crank etc.) on the road, D10 Bushman awaiting rebuilding.

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Stoo63
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March 30, 2020 - 8:50 pm
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Admirable stuff, Stu. An example to us all. As you say, it's an ill wind..... I'm getting on with loads of jobs as well. Might as well. 🙂 I'll move this topic over to the FAQs/ Tech Archive. Great data for other restorers. Great work, again.

Stewart

 '55 D3 Battery; '58 Square Four (project); '59 D1 direct lighting plunger; '59 Tiger Cub; '60 5TA;  '76 FS1-E; '91 GTR 1000;  '97 Honda Sky SGX50.

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SpacedMarine
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March 30, 2020 - 8:53 pm
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Looking very promising was thinking this should be a sticky stoo👍🏼

What's 7/16 in mm again?

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Alan.Moore
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September 4, 2020 - 7:54 pm
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stubaker58 said
DBD83EB4-2270-4FDA-B235-49645F88DFA4.jpegBE96BBB9-42A6-40ED-A46B-C6E6945F4D43.jpeg

This is what the formers look like, sorry it’s on edge.  An original and the dimensions for the new, it’s asymmetric so that when folding it around the coil the short tab sits under the longer one.  

Stu

Just about to attempt this refurb on my stator. Couple of questions:

Did it work after your refurb?

Did you use heat resistant shrinkwrap for the connecting wires or standard heatshrink.

Cheers

Alan 

1939 Ariel VH, 1942 Ariel WNG, 1951 Triumph 6T Thunderbird, 1970 BSA Bantam B175, 1980 Honda CB250N, 1986 Yamaha SRX600

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stubaker58
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September 5, 2020 - 9:30 pm
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Hi Alan,

I’m afraid I got a bit disheartened and still haven’t finished it!

ive been more involved in putting a Bushman together and then my mongrel D7 decided to throw a circlip so I’ve been sorting that out when I have time.

Heat resistant shrink wrap is the way to go though, and keep an accurate account of how the coils are wired together as it’s not obvious once they are apart.  

If you need any spare parts I’ve got a number(!) of u/s generators that I’d be happy to break. (I’ve also got two statues with resin enclosed coils ... not sure if they’d work on a Bantam though.

Look forward you seeing what someone with your skill makes of the job.

Regards.

D7/14 hybrid (4 speed with D7 crank etc.) on the road, D10 Bushman awaiting rebuilding.

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