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Octane772's D1 1949
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Octane772
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September 9, 2016 - 11:41 pm
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If you've seen my 'introduce yourself' post, you'll know that i am lucky enough to have a near complete bike that had been restored by my late father in law.

I've a rolling frame and boxes of parts, some of which i suspect do not belong with this bike.  The bike has suffered damage to the supports/lugs on the lower frame, looking at pictures of the bike when it was assembled the stand doesn't look right as commented on in the introduction post.  The lugs have been welded back on (on an angle, can anyone confirm this is right?) i've seen on other threads suggestions that these two threaded lugs should be vertical.

So as the frame has been welded already, i'll persevere with the reassembly and see how the angle of these lugs affects the angle of the stop for the stand.  I've been today to collect some colour matched paint from Buckley Paints and Panels near where i live.  £23 for a matched aerosol and a matched touch up pot, the colour's not bad but it's not an exact match, the green looking a slightly brighter pine green rather than a green on the fringe of olive tones. £23 is not overly expensive but i was expecting a closer match, perhaps my expectations were too high, once the engine is in and the stand is on this colour match is going to be a minor issue.

I'm planning to have the bike built up and ready for MOT early 2017, with the view of having it registered and rideable early spring in time for our three days of good weather.

I'm going to reassemble the bike as far as i can without retouching the paint, i'm not entirely sure how it all fits together/assembly order and even if that will be an issue. i'd like to have the bike running confirm the mechanicals are all sound before stripping down again and painting the repair.

So after collecting the bike and having a good rummage through the boxes i'd realised that the petcock and speedo cable were missing, i'm sure there may be other bits absent, i'd seen pictures of the petcock in situ so could only assume that it was somewhere in my mother in laws garage.  Two hours of searching later I found both items, i'm not sure whether the request for divine intervention helped at all.

The petcock was seized solid, along with the state of the tank it's clear that this bike had not seen fuel for a very long time, well at least not in the conventional way, i've been told the engine has been run on a bench in the past.

I tried all sorts of release agents, nothing worked on the petcock, with the grub acre removed the knurled stop would turn but it wouldn't budge.  After a lot of grunting I finally got the stop out.  it was seized solid with 50 year old petroil that had reduced to the consistency of tar.  Degreasing spray did not have any effect at all.  The cork was still in good order though.  Petrol and cotton buds and it looks like a new one, the gauze had rusted but this came up pretty clean again with some petrol and a rub with some fine steel wool.

IMG_5591.jpg

IMG_5592.jpg

Realising that there had been no fuel through this for many a year i turned my attention to the fuel tank, looking inside my heart sank.  Very rusty indeed!  The internet research suggested vinegar, old bolts, jet washing, electrolysis, acid, special cleaners etc.  The electrolysis method was my preferred option, cheap and not much could go wrong within reason, plus who doesn't like a bit of science!  There's no fun retelling the story of when you cleaned a fuel tank with a diluted solution of jif lemon and baking soda, but electrolysis is a winner every time.

I started off protecting the tank a little with cling film, mixed up my electrolyte (Morrisons soda flakes £1) and added a steel anode, insulated at the tip and around where it would contact the tank neck.

All started off well with the electrolyte bubbling away.  As you will see from the pictures the reaction was quite dramatic with orange gunky froth spewing from the tank, thank goodness for the cling film!

I left it bubbling away overnight in a well ventilated space, this morning i flushed the tank out, the amount of crud and large rust flakes that came out was incredible, although not much attached to the anode.  It actually seems as though the anode may have sacrificed to the steel as there was a lot of pitting to it.  After a good flush with fresh water I put in about 2 lb of heavy bolts, washers and screws and gave the tank a good swirl and shake about for about 20 minutes.  This really brought lots of deposits out of the tank, very black this time. and i could feel that the tank walls were getting pretty smooth.  I've tried to take a couple photos of the inside, sorry i don't have a before shot, but the difference is amazing, 

I've set the electrolysis up again, a bit more careful this time with the measuring of the electrolyte, this time the reaction has been even more spectacular with orange growths erupting from the tank, i'll leave it overnight and hopefully should be somewhere near clear tomorrow.

IMG_5585.JPG Weapon of choice £1 soda crystals

IMG_5586.jpg Tank wrapped up

IMG_5588.jpg Sacrificial anode insulated

IMG_5589.jpg First run - not much happening

IMG_5590.jpg 15 minutes

IMG_5594.jpg 1 hour

IMG_5598.jpg 4 hours

IMG_5599.jpg 6 hours

IMG_5600.jpg 

IMG_5601.jpg looking significantly better!

IMG_5602.jpg

IMG_5605.jpg 2nd run - to be continued...

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Mags 1
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September 10, 2016 - 12:00 am
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I haven't tried electrolysis yet, but have watched lots of videos and read plenty too.

People always seem to use a big plastic tub with steel sheet or sacrificial metal around the outsides connected to the positive battery or charger terminal. Work goes on the negative, suspended in the electrolyte. They always seem to get very good results.

What I don't understand is how you can do the same in a steel petrol tank, where the, I imagine, positive terminal would go onto the inside of the tank itself and attach the rubbish to that?

Or are you using a positively charged steel rod and the tank as the negative?

I'm sure I've seen tanks coming up really greyish and clean with most of the rust gone on earlier posts on here, , but flash rust sets back in, in minutes, if not treated.

Tanks aren't very thick and I'd be afraid of holing one!

Four now on the road and at least several in bits.

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Octane772
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September 10, 2016 - 12:16 am
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Exactly what you said Mags, the steel rod there is the positively charged anode, all i've done is wrap it with insulation tape on the end and around the middle to prevent it from shorting out against the tank.  The negative was connected to the tank itself, there's guides out there and there's a few risks so research is important.  As i don't know the condition of the tank under the paint holing it is an issue, but unless i deal with this rust the bike will just remain a pretty showpiece.  As soon as i'm done, i'm going to fill the tank with fuel to try to keep that flash rust at bay.

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Anderzander
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September 10, 2016 - 9:02 am
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Good work ! and great write up.

I've used vinegar (good), a purchased rust removing chemical (OK), Fuming strength hydrochloric acid (excellent), and (accidentally) Diesel 😯 (Surprisingly good!).

From my experience, and what I've seen as other people's experience, they take a lot of work to really get clean and once up and running an inline filter is essential - because it never all comes out in one go.... The other good practice will be periodically emptying your tank through a filter into a can and then putting it back in.

Stephen

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mike p5xbx
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September 10, 2016 - 3:55 pm
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I cleaned my petrol tank out at the beginning of the year
I used a recipe from the VMCC club
Acetic acid 85% real stuff not white vinegar and let it soak for 3 days then washed out with bicarb of soda
( that step had a very strange effect on the remaining muck in the tank made it jelly like)
then used phosphoric acid 85% at 50% dilution for 3 hours
and then lots of washing out.
I did not take a before photo unfortunately but was quit bad
never easy to take a photo of the inside but it is now like new
and still the same 9 months later

pet-tank.jpeg

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D? - D10- D14 Bantams 350 AJS -500 Triumph http://bsanotru.....lfire.com/

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Octane772
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September 25, 2016 - 11:10 pm
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Thought i should add an update, although in real terms not much has happened.

I've received a perfect piece of ground glass from ** Please log in to view ** via ebay, the smiths chronometer is looking pretty good.

IMG_5684.jpg

With a change in the weather i've decided to paint the bits of exposed frame and touch up any scratches despite not being very happy with the colour, i will be getting the correct paint soon.  Decided today that i would try to find all the bits for the stand and reassemble.

These lugs were welded/brazed/repaired by the FIL but They don't look right to me.

IMG_5689.jpg

'It's a trap!!'

For those of you that are on the Facebook group you will have seen this picture I posted earlier today, the footrest bar lugs are parallel to the ground but the lugs for the brake and stand stop plate have rotated backwards, i have seen pictures of them snapped and i think they have been welded as is, comments from the Facebook users indicate these should be vertical.

So after deciphering the parts list and finding pictures on here and google that show the 'p-clip' facing up or down and the horseshoe shaped bracket forwards and backwards I got somewhere near. (I now realise the horseshoe shaped bracket is back to front as is the p-clip).

IMG_5693.jpg

Quality colour match! 🙂

After assembly you can see that the angle of the 'lugs' has resulted in a high brake lever and a stand that seems to be not very stable.

IMG_5694.jpg

So i contacted the eldest, my son, who's not long completed a year welding at college and is now engineering asking if he could help out.  In the meantime i had some great comments from Francis, Roy and Bournemouth Bantams suggesting that rather than relocating the lugs i should adjust the stop plate or build up the stand. Back to No.1 son who tells me that he doesn't have unsupervised access to the fly press in college so the bend in the steel could be problematic.

Being a creative sort I considered the problem and came up with the following:

IMG_5696-1.jpg

Home made press, just apply 'ooof'.

IMG_5697.jpg

…and an orange hammer.

It worked out ok, a bit of hacksaw work and grinding and i was somewhere near, the plan being to replicate the original part with a bit more meat on the leading edge, pretty pleased with the results.

IMG_5698-1.jpg

IMG_5699.jpg

Fitted and the stand looks right to me, any comments on the correct position would be appreciated.

IMG_5700.jpgIMG_5701.jpgIMG_5702.jpg

The horseshoe shaped piece is fouling the underside of the frame and I suspect the stand spring is too long, things to look at next, i've seen posts on this forum of others with similar problems.

The de-rusting of the tank has been an ongoing saga over the past couple of weeks, pretty clear now but not as clean as others i have seen, I've order an in-line clear filter, not in keeping with the bike but likely essential given how bad the tank was.

Speedo cable has been ordered, found to be wrong and sent back, next job after I finish fettling this stand will be to paint up then refit the engine.

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jess steele
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September 26, 2016 - 7:59 am
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The p clip and horse shoe for the stand are the wrong way round,if you fitted the engine once the stand was folded upwards the horse shoe would hit the bottom of the engine..

I see you've modified the flat bar for the stand and brake peddle,so to fit the p clip the other side,it looks like you'll have to file in a slot in the said flat bar so the p clip fits further back and lines up with the modified bar's off set hole,you may have to tap the top of the p clip downwards slightly aswell due to your bar being on a slant so it clears the engine and the horse shoe swings under the footrest,

The spring is the wrong one for the d1 to d5,it looks to be the one for d7 onwards,ebay sellers only seem to sell these now and pass them off as d1 to b175's,I've modified these before by shortening,the hook for the stand by folding it round a bar the same diameter as the stand and the cutting off any excess on the hook's tag end.....

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Piquet
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September 26, 2016 - 11:50 am
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It's another instance of the parts book diagram showing the wrong orientation for the items. There is plenty of information available as below.

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and Albie has more information on his blog, follow the story through

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I'm not a complete idiot ............................................ some parts are missing.

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Mags 1
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September 26, 2016 - 12:59 pm
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It might have been messier, but better in the long run to put the brackets back to their rightful place?

I see trouble ahead here, sorry to be negative.

I'm doing a plunger D1 myself at the moment, in fits and starts and stops.

Four now on the road and at least several in bits.

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Octane772
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September 26, 2016 - 3:57 pm
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Thanks for the comments, I had gone off the parts diagram initially the pictures above taken before i realised it was the wrong way round!  So many google pictures of them being forward, back, p clip up and down.  Forum posts and the faq's have been a great help, thanks Piquet for those other links, some there that i hadn't seen.  I also agree it would be better to put it right Mags and i will do at some point, but if i'm honest the bike has sat in a garage for the past 40 years or so without being ridden, i'd like to get it back together, have a ride out next spring then perhaps seek the assistance of a kind welder who doesn't mind being paid in tea and cake, the lad isn't keen on doing the job unfortunately!

One question though, there is a 'spring clip' to hold the stand bolted to the frame, near the bottom of the rear mudguard, would this model have both the 'c-bracket, p clip and spring assembly' and the 'spring clip' or was the c bracket a replacement?  i've seen text of the '49 that mention the c bracket assembly being a revision.  I suppose my question put clearer is would others recommend that I have both methods of retaining the stand folded away or should i just ditch the c bracket assembly and just keep the spring clip on the frame.

Shortening the spring could be an option Jess if the mechanism is to stay, pretty sturdy stuff though so i'lll have to come up with a method with minimal swearing and finger injuries.

Justin

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Hans Kreuzen
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September 26, 2016 - 9:48 pm
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I use the spring C type on my 1950 plunger and the frame type clip on my 1948, I would stick with the original frame clip, IF it is a nice captive fit.

Obviously the spring C type is a better improved design, so it up to you, 

What ever you do, Keep the frame clip and don't throw it away, as it will be worth money to a restorer rivet counter like merofl

1950 D1 plunger for daily use, Concourse 1948 D1 rigid, 1949 Aus. PMG replica D1 project and a 1949 rigid D1 survivor.

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Octane772
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October 8, 2016 - 1:02 pm
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Steve Walsh has been kindly supporting me via email with searching of the factory records.  I have some documentation from Cheshire archives also relating to the reg plate which I believed was correct.  Steve has found a factory record suggesting the frame could be a '54, based on the photos above could anyone help out in this regard? Steve also advises that the factory's record keeping was not also infallible so there is a chance that the frame number was reused.

Being a newbie in this regard any advice would be appreciated, looking through the production changes listed in the Owen Wright book, i have the following, but i'd appreciate if anyone could help out with definitive frame dating.

Rigid frame, spring clip to hold stand, wico pacey direct lighting, flat exhaust (also under footrests), no pillion footrests. no brake light, horn is the bulb type through forks.  Is there a definitive way to date the frame, through dimension changes to way it was assembled etc that would assist with accurate dating?

Also if anyone has come across and has info on a bike dealer called WS Ashley from Whitchurch, Shropshire it would be most appreciated.

Bike is still in bits, it's had some paint this morning, older picture of the bike below, near complete for reference.

Bantam-D1-21a-1.jpg

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