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Ibayorkie's D1
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lbayorkie
Otley, West Yorkshire
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December 2, 2019 - 1:26 pm
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I took the frame to be straightened recently as you know. To be honest there was so much pushing and pulling going on over a 5 hour period I lost track of what dimensions had been checked and which hadn't. However the frame is now supposedly totally OK. It had better be, it cost £300 to put 'right'

I fitted my speedo drive to the 'original' D1 rigid wheel and offered it up to the wheel dropouts and it seemed to fit OK and of course the spindle had enough sticking out of the speedo side. This makes me thing the distance between dropouts is correct.

What I havent done is try to fit my botched wheel with the multiple washers between the dropouts, or if I did I cant remember. If it does fit then all I can think is that the hub of the botched wheel is narrower and needs the washers to pack it out to the right width. If this proves to be the case my inclination would be to put the washers outside the drive between it and the frame, but I already know if I do that the drive will bind. Strange.

This makes me think the problem is with the wheel itself and all I can think it that the 'fixed' nut is in the wrong place, which I think equates to the spindle being the wrong way around. I still have no idea why it makes the wheel lock up though.

My wife is away for the next week so I should have more time to play. Might even get it into the kitchen- the garage is very cold this time of year!

Alan

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lbayorkie
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December 3, 2019 - 1:21 pm
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I tried to fit the wheel with the 4 washers and it was too wide. Not really a surprise.

So, I have a wheel which doesnt bind only if I have 4 washers fitted inside the speedo drive, but is too wide to fit the frame and only has about 2mm of spindle protruding from the speedo drive nut. So basically cant be used. 

If you look at this another way, if I dont fit the washers it fits the frame perfectly. But it binds so cant be used either.

Clearly the washers shouldnt be needed in the first place so why is it without them the hub just locks up when I tighten the spindle bolts on the brake side and speedo drive nut on the other?

This is why I keep wondering about the spindle 'fixed nut'

When the rear wheel (apparently from a plunger) was converted the person who did it (Bantam John) removed the original bearings and spindle and replaced the spindle with a 1/2 inch one and also replaced the bearings with ones for a 1/2 inch spindle and machined collars to go around them so they were a good fit inside the hub. Really this should have been good enough and doesnt explain why I am getting this problem.

Anyone who has experience of the 'fixed nut' and the consequences of putting this in the wrong position please let me know!

Thanks

Alan

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cocorico
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December 3, 2019 - 2:09 pm
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Have you actually measured the thread lengths of the spindle ends to see which is which and does the spindle, on it's own, sit across the drop outs with room for the outer spindle nuts to be tightened? Referring to SS 508 again. Page 4 seems to cover the set-up. If I were you I would assume the fixed nut has been moved and start from scratch. ie tighten the nut up to the shoulder on the short end of the spindle (for all rigid frames), the service sheet is clear about that.

I'm sorry I can only do this by remote control, as it were, it would be much easier hands on I'm sure, if only to find out what's wrong!

1956 D3 running, lights to sort. 7 other bikes in the Barn, including a Morini 250 now insured and on road testing.

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lbayorkie
Otley, West Yorkshire
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December 4, 2019 - 1:54 pm
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I've never dismantled a hub before so its a bit hard to visualise everything. Sheet 508 seems to indicate (if Ive read it right) that the spindle can be withdrawn without removing the bearings so if that's the case it should be fairly easy to remove it and make the checks you suggested. 

It looks like the 'fixed' nut is always on the speedo side its just I have to work out whether its better on the shorter or longer threaded spindle section.

I know 508 says for early rigids (like mine) it goes on the shorter threaded end however although I have a 1950 frame, the wheel is later so I might need to have the 'fixed' nut on the longer end.

Still not sure if this is going to solve the binding problem but I can only take it a step at a time.

Thanks for you help.

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cocorico
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December 4, 2019 - 5:36 pm
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1) You have a rigid frame? SS508 says "on all rigid-framed models, the 'fixed nut is located on the shorter threaded end of the spindle".

2) The hub is a completely separate unit from the spindle. Starting with the wheel removed from the frame, if you undo the spindle nuts from the brake side of the wheel, you will get to a nut that butts up to the left-hand hub bearing, removing this nut allows you to push the spindle through the hub (LH bearing, spacer, RH bearing) and speedo drive. You should then have a spindle with a nut which is butted up to a shoulder on the short end of the spindle, this is the key position (if I read the sheet correctly). It also should give the correct spacing for the speedo drive to engage the drive lugs on the hub without locking up.

Try the above, if nothing else it will show you how it should be assembled. Nothing should fall out of the hub and you can the check the spindle across the drop outs, the put the lot back together by inserting the spindle from the speedo drive side. As far as I know, the only difference between early and later hubs is the spindle diameter, not width.

If you haven't done so, I suggest printing the service sheet so you can more easily refer to it (especially the different Fig 23a, b, etc).

I can't think of anything else to suggest. It's a basic job which should not give any problems as long as your frame is right, together with the spindle. Check the measurements of both while apart.

1956 D3 running, lights to sort. 7 other bikes in the Barn, including a Morini 250 now insured and on road testing.

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lbayorkie
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December 4, 2019 - 10:01 pm
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Yes, rigid frame. I will find out which end of the spindle the fixed nut is attached when I take it out.

I really appreciate the time you have taken to compose this reply. I now have a much better idea of what is needed. I actually have an original bound volume of service sheets so that will make things a little easier. I will let you know how I get on. Alan.

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cocorico
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December 5, 2019 - 7:32 am
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fingers-crossed

1956 D3 running, lights to sort. 7 other bikes in the Barn, including a Morini 250 now insured and on road testing.

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lbayorkie
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December 6, 2019 - 8:32 pm
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So, I did some work on the bike today.

Good news and bad. Good first. I put the fixed nut on the long end. To stop the speedo drive locking up I had to put 2 washers between the spindle lock nuts and the inside of the drive. There was an equal amount of spindle sticking out of both ends and whats more it fitted dropouts just fine. 

The bad news is that there is no bearing locknut on the speedo side (very thin one on brake side) although the felt and cover are there.

The other negative is that the spacer rattles around inside the hub. The spindle nut on the speedo side and the brake plate nut were both very tight so i dont know whats holding the bearings apart. In the attached image you can see the way the bearing on the speedo side sits inside the collar made by john phelan.

On the face of it I have a working wheel but I am worried about the spacer and lack of bearing locknut.

Alan20191206_141317.jpg

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cocorico
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December 7, 2019 - 11:13 am
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The bearings should be held in place in the hub by the tightness of the fit between them and the housings. The spacer should be a snug fit between the bearings - when changing bearings it is normal to move the spacer in the hub enough to get a drift on an inside edge of a bearing in order to drive it out. Once one is out, you pull out the spacer and have plenty of room to drift out the other. This means you don't actually have locknuts to hold the bearings in place, they are purely for positioning of the speedo drive, brake plate, whatever. If the bearings are loose, you do have a problem (I think you said they were fitted into adaptors?), a floppy spacer is not much to worry about as long as you can get the spindle through it. I can only refer you back to the service sheet and advise that you find someone local to give you some assistance. You must be learning a lot about motorcycle maintenance just now!

1956 D3 running, lights to sort. 7 other bikes in the Barn, including a Morini 250 now insured and on road testing.

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Stoo63
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December 7, 2019 - 11:26 am
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I have to disagree with you on this one, Bob, when you say " a floppy spacer is not much to worry about." Inevitably as the years roll by, that, tragically, seems to be the case. However I suppose all is well "as long as you can get the spindle through it." It doesn't say in your bio that you used to write the Carry On scripts.....

'52 D1 direct lighting plunger, '58 Square Four (project), '59 D1 direct lighting plunger,  '59 Tiger Cub, '60 5TA,  '76 FS1-E

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bantammad
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December 7, 2019 - 12:34 pm
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Hi bantammad ere floppy spacer tube not on your life the tube is there to stop preload onto the central bearing race and not put stress onto the ball race regards LES

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lbayorkie
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December 8, 2019 - 10:39 am
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Im not really sure what to do next. The fact this is a plunger rear wheel adapted for a rigid small diameter spindle is requiring a bit of a match solution. I am wondering if the 'hub bearing distance piece' fitted is the wrong one. The parts manual mentions 90-6022 for the rigid and 90-6064 for the plunger. I wonder what the difference is? Is it diameter or length. The distance piece diameter did seem to be more appropriate to the larger diameter plunger spindle but the other thing is i may have 'missed the distance piece completely with the spindle, is that possible?

Alan

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cocorico
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December 8, 2019 - 2:09 pm
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Perhaps you need to ask Mr Phelan for further assistance? I'm afraid I can't offer any more guidance, apart from suggesting that you don't worry about changing sprockets until you have fixed this problem.

1956 D3 running, lights to sort. 7 other bikes in the Barn, including a Morini 250 now insured and on road testing.

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sunny
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December 8, 2019 - 2:18 pm
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you   need  to  start  again   use  washer   & distans  parts  only  on the  nearside   to  ajust     the   wheel      and  a  strate    eage  to  tuch  both  tyers on  the   offside  and   lining  up  the  chaine  sprocets  on  the   nearside    get   that  lot  strate    take  of  the  exsost also ,,. Tthen   see how  much    GAP     you  have  on  the  speedo gearbox   side    addup  or   subtract  bits  to  get  the   corect   parts  in   if  you   can      you  mite  find  the  washers   you  found  are  to  big  on the out   and  cachin  the  outside  of the bearings     good  luck

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lbayorkie
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December 8, 2019 - 3:10 pm
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The sprocket question is still valid as it relates to an attempt to fix my original D1 rigid wheel not the one we are talking about here. Its looking like sorting my original wheel might be less hassle all round in any case its worth doing.

I dont really want to start again but I will try Sunnys idea- thanks Sunny.

I can say that after frame straightening we put the wheel in and the sprockets lined up perfectly, the chap used a laser device. Having said that ive since switched the spindle around!

If you see lots of D1 rigid parts for sale on ebay you will know Ive given up on the project!

Alan

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swalsh58
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December 8, 2019 - 3:53 pm
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Don’t give up. Lock the workshop door and walk away for a while. Let it sit, and when your ready, go back and sort it out. I have started doing that, and things take longer but it’s less stressful! Good luck with it, I’m sure you will get there in the end.

Current bikes......1958 D5, a 77 Suzuki GT250 and a 77 Honda CB125S. I have a B175 in the workshop and a 76 Honda C90 waiting its turn. A 1980 Honda CB400N waiting for MOT.  Everyday ride is a 2011 Harley Davidson Sportster. 

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lbayorkie
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December 9, 2019 - 1:06 pm
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Thats probably good advice, trouble is until I get it sorted its a permanent mental pre-occupation. 

 

Thanks

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