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Ibayorkie's D1
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cocorico
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December 3, 2019 - 2:09 pm
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Have you actually measured the thread lengths of the spindle ends to see which is which and does the spindle, on it's own, sit across the drop outs with room for the outer spindle nuts to be tightened? Referring to SS 508 again. Page 4 seems to cover the set-up. If I were you I would assume the fixed nut has been moved and start from scratch. ie tighten the nut up to the shoulder on the short end of the spindle (for all rigid frames), the service sheet is clear about that.

I'm sorry I can only do this by remote control, as it were, it would be much easier hands on I'm sure, if only to find out what's wrong!

1956 D3 running, lights to sort. 7 other bikes in the Barn. 1950 D1 engine now running.

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lbayorkie
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December 4, 2019 - 1:54 pm
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I've never dismantled a hub before so its a bit hard to visualise everything. Sheet 508 seems to indicate (if Ive read it right) that the spindle can be withdrawn without removing the bearings so if that's the case it should be fairly easy to remove it and make the checks you suggested. 

It looks like the 'fixed' nut is always on the speedo side its just I have to work out whether its better on the shorter or longer threaded spindle section.

I know 508 says for early rigids (like mine) it goes on the shorter threaded end however although I have a 1950 frame, the wheel is later so I might need to have the 'fixed' nut on the longer end.

Still not sure if this is going to solve the binding problem but I can only take it a step at a time.

Thanks for you help.

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cocorico
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December 4, 2019 - 5:36 pm
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1) You have a rigid frame? SS508 says "on all rigid-framed models, the 'fixed nut is located on the shorter threaded end of the spindle".

2) The hub is a completely separate unit from the spindle. Starting with the wheel removed from the frame, if you undo the spindle nuts from the brake side of the wheel, you will get to a nut that butts up to the left-hand hub bearing, removing this nut allows you to push the spindle through the hub (LH bearing, spacer, RH bearing) and speedo drive. You should then have a spindle with a nut which is butted up to a shoulder on the short end of the spindle, this is the key position (if I read the sheet correctly). It also should give the correct spacing for the speedo drive to engage the drive lugs on the hub without locking up.

Try the above, if nothing else it will show you how it should be assembled. Nothing should fall out of the hub and you can the check the spindle across the drop outs, the put the lot back together by inserting the spindle from the speedo drive side. As far as I know, the only difference between early and later hubs is the spindle diameter, not width.

If you haven't done so, I suggest printing the service sheet so you can more easily refer to it (especially the different Fig 23a, b, etc).

I can't think of anything else to suggest. It's a basic job which should not give any problems as long as your frame is right, together with the spindle. Check the measurements of both while apart.

1956 D3 running, lights to sort. 7 other bikes in the Barn. 1950 D1 engine now running.

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lbayorkie
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December 4, 2019 - 10:01 pm
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Yes, rigid frame. I will find out which end of the spindle the fixed nut is attached when I take it out.

I really appreciate the time you have taken to compose this reply. I now have a much better idea of what is needed. I actually have an original bound volume of service sheets so that will make things a little easier. I will let you know how I get on. Alan.

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cocorico
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December 5, 2019 - 7:32 am
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fingers-crossed

1956 D3 running, lights to sort. 7 other bikes in the Barn. 1950 D1 engine now running.

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lbayorkie
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December 6, 2019 - 8:32 pm
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So, I did some work on the bike today.

Good news and bad. Good first. I put the fixed nut on the long end. To stop the speedo drive locking up I had to put 2 washers between the spindle lock nuts and the inside of the drive. There was an equal amount of spindle sticking out of both ends and whats more it fitted dropouts just fine. 

The bad news is that there is no bearing locknut on the speedo side (very thin one on brake side) although the felt and cover are there.

The other negative is that the spacer rattles around inside the hub. The spindle nut on the speedo side and the brake plate nut were both very tight so i dont know whats holding the bearings apart. In the attached image you can see the way the bearing on the speedo side sits inside the collar made by john phelan.

On the face of it I have a working wheel but I am worried about the spacer and lack of bearing locknut.

Alan20191206_141317.jpg

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cocorico
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December 7, 2019 - 11:13 am
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The bearings should be held in place in the hub by the tightness of the fit between them and the housings. The spacer should be a snug fit between the bearings - when changing bearings it is normal to move the spacer in the hub enough to get a drift on an inside edge of a bearing in order to drive it out. Once one is out, you pull out the spacer and have plenty of room to drift out the other. This means you don't actually have locknuts to hold the bearings in place, they are purely for positioning of the speedo drive, brake plate, whatever. If the bearings are loose, you do have a problem (I think you said they were fitted into adaptors?), a floppy spacer is not much to worry about as long as you can get the spindle through it. I can only refer you back to the service sheet and advise that you find someone local to give you some assistance. You must be learning a lot about motorcycle maintenance just now!

1956 D3 running, lights to sort. 7 other bikes in the Barn. 1950 D1 engine now running.

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Stoo63
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December 7, 2019 - 11:26 am
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I have to disagree with you on this one, Bob, when you say " a floppy spacer is not much to worry about." Inevitably as the years roll by, that, tragically, seems to be the case. However I suppose all is well "as long as you can get the spindle through it." It doesn't say in your bio that you used to write the Carry On scripts.....

'52 D1 direct lighting plunger; '58 Square Four (project); '55 D3 Battery; '59 D1 direct lighting plunger;  '59 Tiger Cub; '60 5TA;  '76 FS1-E '97 Honda Sky SGX50.

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bantammad
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December 7, 2019 - 12:34 pm
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Hi bantammad ere floppy spacer tube not on your life the tube is there to stop preload onto the central bearing race and not put stress onto the ball race regards LES

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lbayorkie
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December 8, 2019 - 10:39 am
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Im not really sure what to do next. The fact this is a plunger rear wheel adapted for a rigid small diameter spindle is requiring a bit of a match solution. I am wondering if the 'hub bearing distance piece' fitted is the wrong one. The parts manual mentions 90-6022 for the rigid and 90-6064 for the plunger. I wonder what the difference is? Is it diameter or length. The distance piece diameter did seem to be more appropriate to the larger diameter plunger spindle but the other thing is i may have 'missed the distance piece completely with the spindle, is that possible?

Alan

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cocorico
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December 8, 2019 - 2:09 pm
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Perhaps you need to ask Mr Phelan for further assistance? I'm afraid I can't offer any more guidance, apart from suggesting that you don't worry about changing sprockets until you have fixed this problem.

1956 D3 running, lights to sort. 7 other bikes in the Barn. 1950 D1 engine now running.

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sunny
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December 8, 2019 - 2:18 pm
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you   need  to  start  again   use  washer   & distans  parts  only  on the  nearside   to  ajust     the   wheel      and  a  strate    eage  to  tuch  both  tyers on  the   offside  and   lining  up  the  chaine  sprocets  on  the   nearside    get   that  lot  strate    take  of  the  exsost also ,,. Tthen   see how  much    GAP     you  have  on  the  speedo gearbox   side    addup  or   subtract  bits  to  get  the   corect   parts  in   if  you   can      you  mite  find  the  washers   you  found  are  to  big  on the out   and  cachin  the  outside  of the bearings     good  luck

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lbayorkie
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December 8, 2019 - 3:10 pm
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The sprocket question is still valid as it relates to an attempt to fix my original D1 rigid wheel not the one we are talking about here. Its looking like sorting my original wheel might be less hassle all round in any case its worth doing.

I dont really want to start again but I will try Sunnys idea- thanks Sunny.

I can say that after frame straightening we put the wheel in and the sprockets lined up perfectly, the chap used a laser device. Having said that ive since switched the spindle around!

If you see lots of D1 rigid parts for sale on ebay you will know Ive given up on the project!

Alan

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swalsh58
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December 8, 2019 - 3:53 pm
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Don’t give up. Lock the workshop door and walk away for a while. Let it sit, and when your ready, go back and sort it out. I have started doing that, and things take longer but it’s less stressful! Good luck with it, I’m sure you will get there in the end.

Current bikes......1958 D5, a 77 Suzuki GT250 and a B175 almost ready for the road and a 76 Honda C90 in the workshop. A 1980 Honda CB400N now on the road and my everyday ride is a 2011 Harley Davidson Sportster. All bikes (except the D5) are now for sale...

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lbayorkie
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December 9, 2019 - 1:06 pm
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Thats probably good advice, trouble is until I get it sorted its a permanent mental pre-occupation. 

 

Thanks

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lbayorkie
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December 15, 2019 - 8:45 pm
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Rim-Resized-1.jpgI purchased an original small spindle rear wheel. It came with an off road tyre so I think its been used for scrambling. Its a bit rough but its very solid. Spokes and rim are firm wheel runs true, bearings are smooth but I will be changing these if they arent sealed type. Its got several layers of paint but I dont plan to strip any of this initially. 

My only concern is the surface inside the rim which was revealed when I took the old tyre off. Its a bit rough but there dont seem to be any sharp bits. I considered getting the wire brush on my drill on the job but I think this might just create sharp bits rather than smoothen the surface.

I considered a coat of hammerite to smooth the surface a little. However I am now thinking of just leaving it as it is.

I was going to use a 30mm rim tape and maybe a heavy duty inner tube. Do you think this will be enough?

Will post an image shortly.

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Stoo63
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December 15, 2019 - 9:21 pm
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I think you're on the right track, Alan. Just leave it and use a good rim tape. See how it goes. You don't want to unearth any more gremlins....

'52 D1 direct lighting plunger; '58 Square Four (project); '55 D3 Battery; '59 D1 direct lighting plunger;  '59 Tiger Cub; '60 5TA;  '76 FS1-E '97 Honda Sky SGX50.

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GlenAnderson
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December 16, 2019 - 2:37 pm
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I’d give it a good wire brushing, a coat of rust converter and a couple of decent coats of paint. 

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cocorico
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December 16, 2019 - 3:02 pm
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Before doing anything else, have you tried fitting it in the frame with the speedo drive to see if it cures the problem that has been worrying you? If everything fits OK, do as Glen suggests.

1956 D3 running, lights to sort. 7 other bikes in the Barn. 1950 D1 engine now running.

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lbayorkie
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December 18, 2019 - 12:53 pm
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Yes, I checked that first. This 'original' wheel seems to have all its original components I just need to replace the bearings. I had a go last week but I couldnt get the spindle more than half way out.  I tried with a mallet but I didnt want to force it ant more so put it back together. Will revisit when I have scoured the forum for anyone with a similar problem.

 

Thanks

Alan

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