A A A
Avatar

Please consider registering
Guest

Search

— Forum Scope —






— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

Register Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
Hans Kreuzen's 53 and 50-D1 project
Avatar
Mags 1
Northamptonshire.
Forum User
Site Member
Forum Posts: 2611
Member Since:
August 24, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
41
February 12, 2015 - 11:35 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Mags 1 said
Take inspiration from the fact that even if the bearings are rusted to the crank's  shafts, bearings aren't generally "rusted" into the ally casings.

Mainly because it's generally a metal to metal contact and therefore devoid of air to enable rusting.

Here's hoping on your behalf! 

No guarantees of course, but I think you will get it apart eventually.

Have you tried the South African lad's idea of using two bits of studding and two pieces of flat drilled steel plate, undoing the nuts from inside the plate forces the barrel studs apart.

** Please log in to view **

Something like this I think.

Four now on the road and at least several in bits.

Avatar
Maddog Leary
Melbourne Australia
Forum User
Site Member
Forum Posts: 1251
Member Since:
September 9, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
42
February 13, 2015 - 1:12 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

You do need to be careful using the above method as the top section may split! but the lower section may still stick causing possible damage. It's a «censored», damned if you do, damned if you don't.  I had a similar story when I split my D1 motor.  Managed to get the gap at the top seen in the pic; then used the flat of an old steel engineering ruler to move down the gap widening it as I went (steel was heavy enough to allow a little leverage). The flat of the ruler helped prevent damaging the casing.

MD cheers

Maddog - 56 Swingarm D3 Major -  Major Works in progress! Machine is fighting against me every which way!

Avatar
Hans Kreuzen
Queensland Australia
Forum User
Club Member
Forum Posts: 841
Member Since:
January 17, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
43
February 13, 2015 - 9:33 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

I think I now EXCACLY what you mean MD, I just got back home and my pictures tell the story, R.I.P.

Everything was that rusted stuck, it must have been submerged in the salty flooded river water for a long time and than left for the a long time, My friend helping me said that it would have never come apart, no matter how hard we would have tried and he has been restoring bikes for at least 40 years, His latest is a 1913 Triumph.

On a lighter note, I did start to put plan B into action, I have a spare set of YD number empty casings that match my 1950 frame numbers, So I might transfer everything of the 1953 frame onto the 50 frame, All I have to do is paint the just bought 1950 front guard and find another twin screw toolbox.

Question: Will the 3 speed gears out of the broken BD number engine fit into the YD number engine?

Or maybe get a 1953 BD number set of casings? the best thing is that they still make Rum, cheers.cheersHans

Broken-cases-1.JPG

Broken-cases-2.JPGExtended-centre-stand.JPG

I did do some thing productive this week, and took Sunny's and Demitricy's advise,

I extended the centre stand by welding 30mm. into the bottom part of the legs, I thought it would look better than welding blocks under the feet. out-a-here

1950 D1 plunger for daily use, Concourse 1948 D1 rigid, Black 1953 D1 plunger nearly done and a 1949 rigid D1 survivor.

Avatar
BonesCDI
Forum User
Club Member
Forum Posts: 406
Member Since:
November 7, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
44
February 13, 2015 - 9:44 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

OUCH!!!!!!!!!!

Running and project bikes from 1912 -2005..........She hasn't said stop yet.........

Avatar
CharlieCeng
Norfolk
Forum User
Club Member
Forum Posts: 1575
Member Since:
October 2, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
45
February 13, 2015 - 11:53 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Crankcase looks a bit sad - but the centre stand mod is very tidy, nice job!

cheers for now,

Simon.

 

'42 Ariel W/NG, '58 Ariel Huntmaster, Masquerading D3, '51 Ariel Square Four Mk1 http://ariel-sq.....ogspot.com

Avatar
dimitris
CYPRUS
Forum User
Site Member
Forum Posts: 1490
Member Since:
May 31, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
46
February 13, 2015 - 11:59 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

So sad you didnt listen to me, and try split the case with the cutting disk.. it would come up better cool

No, seriously, it would never come apart and be able to use again !! but the gearbox area  looks ok, right? you can save some parts from there...

Good job at the stand!! so professional... !!

BSA D1, 125cc (1952)---BSA D10 Sport 175cc (1967)---Triumph Cub T20 (1960)

Avatar
Hans Kreuzen
Queensland Australia
Forum User
Club Member
Forum Posts: 841
Member Since:
January 17, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
47
February 13, 2015 - 12:30 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Thanks LOL a cutting disc would have been quicker, Ah well, at least I can carry on with the restoration now.

I hope to use the gears into my other YD engine cases, But I don't know if there is any difference between the cases??????dunno

So the question is: Is there any difference between the 1953 D1 gears and the gears out of a 1950 D1?? are they interchangeable?

Hope you all enjoyed this episode of "50 shades of rust"whistle

1950 D1 plunger for daily use, Concourse 1948 D1 rigid, Black 1953 D1 plunger nearly done and a 1949 rigid D1 survivor.

Avatar
Mags 1
Northamptonshire.
Forum User
Site Member
Forum Posts: 2611
Member Since:
August 24, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
48
February 13, 2015 - 8:48 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hans Kreuzen said
I think I now EXCACLY what you mean MD, I just got back home and my pictures tell the story, R.I.P.

Truly sorry to see your engine end up like this. Never seen an "exploded" view of a bantam engine before!

Maybe it was never destined to go ever go again perhaps, by the look of the amount of corrosion there.

Any three gear components will go in any three gear set of casings I believe, unless others know better?

Four now on the road and at least several in bits.

Avatar
Hans Kreuzen
Queensland Australia
Forum User
Club Member
Forum Posts: 841
Member Since:
January 17, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
49
February 13, 2015 - 10:11 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Awesome Mags1, I'll start cleaning and pressing the old bearings out of the other casings today, Thanks for the info,

I am a very happy man, All the best, ..Hans "The Destroyer"thumbs-uptip-my-hat

PS: If anyone else has problems splitting there casings, just send them to me, I am a expert.

Oh, and Thanks sunny for your PM message.

1950 D1 plunger for daily use, Concourse 1948 D1 rigid, Black 1953 D1 plunger nearly done and a 1949 rigid D1 survivor.

Avatar
Maddog Leary
Melbourne Australia
Forum User
Site Member
Forum Posts: 1251
Member Since:
September 9, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
50
February 14, 2015 - 7:17 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Blimey, that was rotten bit of luck to say the least!!!!!  Have sent you a PM

MD cheers

Maddog - 56 Swingarm D3 Major -  Major Works in progress! Machine is fighting against me every which way!

Avatar
Hans Kreuzen
Queensland Australia
Forum User
Club Member
Forum Posts: 841
Member Since:
January 17, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
51
February 14, 2015 - 8:48 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Poo happens, I send you a PM back..Hans

1950 D1 plunger for daily use, Concourse 1948 D1 rigid, Black 1953 D1 plunger nearly done and a 1949 rigid D1 survivor.

Avatar
Mags 1
Northamptonshire.
Forum User
Site Member
Forum Posts: 2611
Member Since:
August 24, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
52
February 14, 2015 - 12:02 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

I've been musing over this catastrophe for a while and began to think about what if you'd filled the flywheel area with diesel oil or used lots of heat, maybe outcome might have been different.

The cutting disc idea wouldn't have worked because you'd have destroyed the special two stepped  mating surfaces around the flywheel periphery area.

It's all history now, perhaps you can use the gears etc.

Four now on the road and at least several in bits.

Avatar
Hans Kreuzen
Queensland Australia
Forum User
Club Member
Forum Posts: 841
Member Since:
January 17, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
53
February 14, 2015 - 9:49 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi Mags, we had the engine filled up to the top with 50/50 acetone and tranny fluid for about 4 weeks, than we drained it out and heated (flame) the alloy, we swore at it, we talked nicely to it, we hit it, we threatened it to use it as a door stop but it just wasn't suppose to come apart.

I have pressed out the bearings of the spare 1950 casings and just have to clean them up, at least I can move on now and keep working on the project.

The gears look good (I think) and will be used again, I do have a crank, barrel and head, I'll let you know how it all works out.

I am also busy welding, tapping, sand blasting the 1950 frame to match the casing numbers I have.

I do want to thank all the forum posters in my post for there help, info, HUMOUR and great inspiration to help me finish my bikes.

Hanssmile

1950 D1 plunger for daily use, Concourse 1948 D1 rigid, Black 1953 D1 plunger nearly done and a 1949 rigid D1 survivor.

Avatar
Maddog Leary
Melbourne Australia
Forum User
Site Member
Forum Posts: 1251
Member Since:
September 9, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
54
February 15, 2015 - 12:45 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Well that's where you went wrong!; you didn't threaten to use it as a boat anchor! that usually works!.

MD 

Maddog - 56 Swingarm D3 Major -  Major Works in progress! Machine is fighting against me every which way!

Avatar
Bournemouth Bantams
St. Veep, Lostwithiel, Cornwall
Forum User
Site Member
Forum Posts: 1830
Member Since:
September 19, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
55
February 15, 2015 - 7:12 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hanz

The gear clusters are interchangeable so no problems there, but the YD engines often have the gear indicator arm on the outside this is not fitted on the BD engines.

Unless it is a very early BD engine then the pitch of the cylinder studs is different 50mm on a YD engine, 53mm on a 1953 BD engine and 55mm on all post 1954 engines, the guide is the larger fin barrel will be either 53 or 55 but you can get very early large fin barrels that are also 50mm.

The bearing engine seals are also different the YD engine only have three seals the DD engines have 4 an extra on the inner face of the LH crank case face. the earlier fly wheels and the later flywheels are not interchangeable, there is also a batch of flywheels that have a fan attached which acts as an oil thrower.

"H"      

Supplier and stockist of Bantam spares.

Avatar
cocorico
Central France
Forum User
Site Member
Forum Posts: 2848
Member Since:
June 23, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
56
February 15, 2015 - 9:12 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Bournemouth Bantams said

The bearing engine seals are also different the YD engine only have three seals the DD engines have 4 an extra on the inner face of the LH crank case face. the earlier fly wheels and the later flywheels are not interchangeable, there is also a batch of flywheels that have a fan attached which acts as an oil thrower.

“H”

     

Have you got that the right way round H? My 1956 D3 (Eng no BD3B) has 3 seals - 2 on the crankshaft, one on the gearbox outlet. It also has the fan on the generator side of the flywheel.

The Bantam Club Forum - all the answers are in there. If not, Google may.

Avatar
Piquet
West Norfolk
Admin
Forum Posts: 2249
Member Since:
September 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
57
February 16, 2015 - 12:07 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

According to Service Sheet No. 501 (Revised June 1959)
'D' Group Engine and Gearbox (Exploded View)

Note:- On D1 Engines after 1954, and all D3 Engines, the outside crankshaft oil seal is placed next to the flywheel instead of between the two bearings

According to Service Sheet No. 506 (Revised June 1965)
Models D1, D3 D5, and D7
RE-ASSEMBLY OF THE ENGINE-GEARBOX UNIT

When dealing with a D1 engine manufactured before 1955, do not forget that the oil seal part number 90-0284, is located between the two drive-side main bearings. Later D1 and all D3 and D5 engines have a different oil seal part number 90-0749, and this is placed next to the flywheels, inside both bearings.
On the generator side, the oil seal part number 90-0147, should be fitted outside the main bearing. Care must be taken not to press in the seal too far, so as to obscure the oil passage to the main bearing. Engines after numbers DD-101 and BD3-5138 have a circlip between the oil seal and bearing. This means that the oil seal is located approximately 0.10 in. further out, and the parallel portion of the flywheel spindle is extended by this amount. If the later type crankcase assembly part number 90-0826, is used to replace a 1954 D3 crankcase assembly part number 90-0777, the circlip should be removed and the oil seal placed closer to the bearing, unless a later type flywheel and con-rod assembly part number 90-0823, or a flywheel spindle part number 90-0821, is fitted at the same time.

Owen Wright in his book 'BSA Bantam' says on Page 53, when talking about the modifications when the D3 was introduced,

More significant was a subtle change to improve crankshaft lubrication. The primary drive seal, previously found between the two main bearings, was moved in board up against the flywheel. The left-hand seal was pushed outwards by 0.010in and the crank extended to suit. This allowed oil drillings to feed lubricant from the primary drive and on to the bearings. Until then the Bantam engine mainshaft had been entirely dependant upon petroil.
..........The humble D1 had also benefited from some of the same attention ........

 

I'm not 100% sure as I've never had an early D1 or early D3, but I suspect these early engines (3 seals) had an oilway drilled vertically down from the transfer ports to help lubricate the main bearings/seals. The later engines (4 seals) had oil passages to supply gearbox oil to the main bearings (no transfer drillings).

If that is the case, mixing the two systems would result in either dry main bearings or an empty gearbox depending on the individual setup.

Can anybody confirm?

I'm not a complete idiot ............................................ some parts are missing.

Avatar
Hans Kreuzen
Queensland Australia
Forum User
Club Member
Forum Posts: 841
Member Since:
January 17, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
58
February 16, 2015 - 9:11 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Thanks for all the information, Good to hear that I can use the gear clusters out of the broken engine.

I will read al the above carefully until my little brain absorbs it.

I thought I would show some pictures of the YD engine I am going to use in the 1950 frame, the number on the front of the casing is: 38205 YD 

My BD2 4286 broken engine did have the gear indicator on it and I would like to fit it back in the YD engine., It seams to fit alright.

I don't have a fernier yet to measure the stud spacing properly, but I make it to be 52mm.(hard to see in pic) and as you can see it also has the lubricating holes for the crankshaft bearing,

casings-YD-for-1950-4.JPG

casings-YD-for-1950-1.JPGcasings-YD-for-1950-2.JPG

Here you can see the broken alloy on the casing that I will have to fix, I was thinking of using a special glue I use for broken alloy casings-YD-for-1950-3.JPGcasings-YD-for-1950-5.JPGBye Hanswave

1950 D1 plunger for daily use, Concourse 1948 D1 rigid, Black 1953 D1 plunger nearly done and a 1949 rigid D1 survivor.

Avatar
cocorico
Central France
Forum User
Site Member
Forum Posts: 2848
Member Since:
June 23, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
59
February 16, 2015 - 9:29 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hans Kreuzen said

Here you can see the broken alloy on the casing that I will have to fix, I was thinking of using a special glue I use for broken alloy. Bye Hanswave

I have exactly the same break on my D3, I suspect from a broken chain. I have 'repaired' it using a strip of ally and some two-pack plastic metal, but it's not been properly tested yet.

See here:

** Please log in to view **

** Please log in to view **

The Bantam Club Forum - all the answers are in there. If not, Google may.

Avatar
Hans Kreuzen
Queensland Australia
Forum User
Club Member
Forum Posts: 841
Member Since:
January 17, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
60
February 16, 2015 - 10:31 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Yes cocorico, That is what I had in mind, the stuff I use is like a clear super glue and a powder and sets hard instantly, you can than drill and tap it or flog it with a hammer, it sets that hard. It also really good at bonding fingers together, I am speaking from great experience. PS: I haven't heard from Dimitriscy for a while, Hope I haven't upset him to much with all my stirring.popcorn

..Hans

1950 D1 plunger for daily use, Concourse 1948 D1 rigid, Black 1953 D1 plunger nearly done and a 1949 rigid D1 survivor.

Forum Timezone: Europe/London

Most Users Ever Online: 223

Currently Online: ZZ, derektho, proth52, johnsullivan, stretch7
31 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

Cornish Rooster: 3314

Anderzander: 3209

bart: 3141

cocorico: 2848

Sprung Chicken: 2650

Mags 1: 2611

David Dale: 2491

Munchkin: 2221

Blue Heeler: 2139

Katj: 2139

Newest Members:

Aspencade

Forum Stats:

Groups: 9

Forums: 46

Topics: 11793

Posts: 101323

 

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 519

Members: 3089

Moderators: 1

Admins: 3

Administrators: Piquet, JMD, Rusty Floater

Moderators: xcgb