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What Model Bantam is this rear wheel from?
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lbayorkie
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December 9, 2018 - 8:27 pm
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Recently bought this wheel on eBay. Was advertised as 1/2 inch spindle complete with brake assembly. Turns out its the larger diameter spindle and there's no brake assembly, just a brake plate.

Won't fit my 1950 rigid so I'm thinking of selling it on. Problem is Im not sure what to describe it as. 

Its in good condition and the wheel itself (not brake plate) could easily be new old stock. Must be from an early model as its painted.

Just hoping a member recognises the wheel and can tell me what model its from.

ThanksSpeedo-side.jpgRim.jpgBrake-side.jpg

Alan

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December 9, 2018 - 9:07 pm
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Hi Alan,

Someone has painted it after a poor respoke job...I can see a spoke poking out more than chappel hat peg.

Have you spun it to see if it runs true?

Brake back-plate is in original paint.

Can you provide brake drum measurements and rim size?

Blue

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lbayorkie
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December 9, 2018 - 9:20 pm
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Good point about the spoke sticking out. Will measure and get back to you but likely to be next weekend. I have hand held only and seems to run true, whats best way to hold it when checking?

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lbayorkie
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December 9, 2018 - 9:32 pm
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Just did a quick check,  Diameter of wheel approx 20 inches, brake plate 5

I double checked and only 1 spoke sticking out. Spun wheel in my hands again and if it is out true its not apparent.

As I said the brake plate is warped but might be sortable with a big hammer.

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Blue Heeler
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December 9, 2018 - 9:35 pm
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You could G-clamp the spindle onto edge of a bench and then spin up, using a wire pointer to gauge run-out...or drill appropriate spindle diameter hole into large lump of wood and sit wheel on its side and spin....or get someone to hold it while you give it a gentle spin,you`ll soon see if it`s out. 

Edit...Ah,you`ve done that...but will leave details for anyone`s future reference.

The early Bantams I have are 19",so maybe that`s what you have?

I`ve been lazy,instead of checking my drum size,here is a link,scroll down,gives wheel and drum sizes.

** Please log in to view **

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lbayorkie
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December 9, 2018 - 10:34 pm
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According to the chart the only options are 19 and 18 inch wheels and 4.5 and 5 inch drums. I measured wheel diameter from outer rim to outer rim without removing the spindle so maybe it is 19 inches. I need to measure drum again. I measured diameter of brake plate I presume i really need to remove the brake plate and measure the internal diameter of the the brake hub- correct?

Even if I find its a 19 inch/4.5 inch example still doesnt tell me what model its from, I think it might be from a very early plunger possibly.

As far as the sticking out spoke goes (theres only one) is it posibble to snip it off and file down? I dont know much about wheel building but this seems like an option. 

Alan

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December 10, 2018 - 12:06 am
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You can measure diameters of objects with obstructing spindles using cardboard.A cereal box,punching a hole with the spindle,over the brake drum,then light taps with mallet to mark out the circle,remove,fold in half,draw a line over crease and measure,will do the trick.

Yes grind that extra long spoke down to the nipple,if wheel presents true.There`s also a raised one I saw in the few within the image,that could be shown the grinder too.Whoever you sell it to can then fit a rim tape to protect the inner tube.

Don`t forget wheel has been rebuilt,so it could be a mix,but once you`ve got those measurements rechecked,we`ll know which model it can be fitted to.

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lbayorkie
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December 10, 2018 - 9:36 pm
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Might not have been respoked completely, could just have been one or two spokes that were replaced- wishful thinking maybe?

I took off the brake plate and measured the drum with a vernier and it was 5". Still to try the cardboard trick but I have a question- where on the rim do I measure to? If I measure from the inside of the rim to the speedo housing and then same on other side of the housing and then add the width of the housing I get 19", I think the inside of the rim must be the right place because this is where the tyre rim is seated. So 19" wheel, 5" brake drum.

Cant work the paint out. It looks old but it has a funny rough 'biscuit' finish and its very, very hard. I cant find evidence of chrome under the paint, but as I say its hard to remove.

Hope this helps.

 

Alan

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December 11, 2018 - 11:00 am
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You`re spot on with your measurement for the wheel rim.If I get time later today,I`ll winkle out some early 19" D1/D3 wheels and measure the spindles and brake drums for you,so at least you`ll know the score and can hopefully rule out a hybrid jobbie...unless someone beats me to it and measures theirs for you first.

Cheers,

Blue

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lbayorkie
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December 11, 2018 - 2:30 pm
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Your help is much appreciated.

Background: I bought a 1950 D1 which was sold as roadworthy, turned out rear wheel  was a total mess- it wobbled like mad on the spindle. I sent it to Bantam John who told me it was a plunger rear wheel and the previous owner had replaced the 9/16 spindle with a 1/2 inch one so it would fit the frame. Hence the wobble I suppose. John machined some new bits and handed it back to me saying "that'll fit your rigid frame now"

Well it does but there are clearance issues with the mudguard. I decided to buy another rear wheel to see if it made any difference. If not I was going to track down an original mudguard to see if that helped. So buying the wheel you are now kindly helping me with was part of that plan.

Now back to the wheel my bike originally came with. It looks to be the same as the one I have just bought, looks to be same diameter and also has 5" brake drum. Its fitted with a 19" tyre so that confirms the wheel diameter I reckon. 

So it could be what I have is a plunger rear wheel. Its a bit of an anomally because it must be early because its painted but not too early because its got the 9/16 spindle. I know there a lot of discussion about when the spindle sizes changed but I will try to find out when chrome was introduced.

Speak to you soon.

 

Alan

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December 12, 2018 - 2:25 pm
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Alan,

Just got around to measuring the rear wheel I bought along with a front one, to replace the original shot ones on my 1954 D3.

Obviously it`s a 19" wheel,spindle is 1/2" dia,drum 5" x 3/4".

Good luck in replacing your later 9/16" item.

Without checking back,can`t remember if your refurbed wheel sat bang inline with the main frame tube...or it was the repro Indian? guard that was out?

Blue

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lbayorkie
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December 12, 2018 - 10:41 pm
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Your wheel has a 1/2" spindle, is painted and has a 5" brake drum. If its painted it must be pre 1952 (when chrome was introduced) so must be from a D1, yet according to the table D1's all had 4 1/2" drums!

My ebay wheel has a 9/16" spindle, is painted and has a 5" brake drum. As its painted it must be pre 1952 and must therefore be from a D1, yet the impression I get is that early Bantam wheels all had 1/2" spindles!

The wheel on my 1950 framed D1 rigid is paint over chrome and originally had a 9/16" spindle so must be 1952 or later.

I dont know how I can tell if either of my wheels are from plungers, unless the offset is different compared to a rigid rear wheel.

As I said previously, I think the guard is my problem but wanted an original spec D1 rigid rear wheel so I could be certain the guard was the issue.

Its all very anomalous.

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December 14, 2018 - 1:24 pm
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They were advertised as D3 but I checked measurements and they fit my `54 D3 perfectly.Originally were chrome but had gone a bit too rusty so I rubbed them down and painted both rims,as I do with all steel rims that aren`t too far gone,even later Bantams etc.I have my D3 swing-arm model to do next,chrome has flaked off those rims.

Rim from your recent purchase looks to have been painted by Joe Public,going by the shade of green.

Are you looking to sell the 9/16 spindled wheel and look out for a 1/2" replacement?

I think you`ll struggle to find an original Rigid complete rear wheel in good serviceable nick.Again,is the Bantam John refurbed wheel centre in line with the centre of the frame main tube? If it is then I`d just concentrate on the mudguard issue,you can get the wheel sandblasted and painted green...if it`s now sporting a chrome rim and standard spokes since refurb?

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lbayorkie
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December 14, 2018 - 1:51 pm
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Initially Im going to go down the eBay Dispute route and see if I can get some money back on the basis that it definitely wasnt as advertised (original paint, complete with brake assembly- I dont think so!) Failing that I will try to sell it, again on eBay but this time with an accurate description. 

I would definitely like a 1/2 spindle rear wheel if nothing else to make my bike more authentic.

The plunger rear wheel that Bantam John converted from 9/16 to 1/2" is painted chrome but its not a good paint job so will need re-doing at some point. The rear wheel isnt on the bike at the moment as I have some other issues with it that I have so far been unable to resolve, which will be the subject of a separate post. I cant remember how well it lines up with the down tube but I think that was OK. Certainly no problem fitting the wheel without the mudguard. Its in these areas where experience is required that I'm lacking. Could do with someone local just to look over the bike and give me some confidence.

Fitting and re-fitting the wheel kills my back and of course I have to do that each time I adjust the mudguard (the nut at the bottom of the downtube isnt accessible otherwise). Im just finishing 6 months of physio to sort that particular problem out. I suppose this is another area in which an extra pair of hands would make a big difference, oh well!

Alan

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swalsh58
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December 14, 2018 - 2:14 pm
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Fitting and re-fitting the wheel kills my back and of course I have to do that each time I adjust the mudguard (the nut at the bottom of the downtube isnt accessible otherwise). Im just finishing 6 months of physio to sort that particular problem out. I suppose this is another area in which an extra pair of hands would make a big difference, oh well!

Alan  

Buy yourself a hydraulic bike lift. Best thing I ever did, takes up a fair bit of room, but takes all the strain out of bending down. I got one second hand for £250, its a complete bargain and worth every penny.

Current bikes......1958 D5, a 77 Suzuki GT250 and a 77 Honda CB125S. I have a 74 Kawasaki S3 400 and a B175 waiting for restoration. A 1980 Honda CB400N waiting for MOT.  Everyday ride is a 2011 Harley Davidson Sportster. 

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lbayorkie
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December 15, 2018 - 8:00 am
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Im not familiar with these but do you need to remove the exhaust for the engine to sit on the lift platform?

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cocorico
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December 15, 2018 - 8:13 am
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lbayorkie said
...Fitting and re-fitting the wheel kills my back and of course I have to do that each time I adjust the mudguard (the nut at the bottom of the downtube isnt accessible otherwise). Im just finishing 6 months of physio to sort that particular problem out. I suppose this is another area in which an extra pair of hands would make a big difference, oh well!

Alan  

You can work wonders with an ordinary hydraulic or scissor jack, a couple of axle-stands and a few blocks of wood under the footrests. Or a bit of imagination and a pair of wheel ramps.

Or look for bike lifts on ebay - from £45, I bought a hydraulic one like the SwitZer, currently £79 with free delivery, though for the Bantam you need to chock up either side of the centre frame tube - not a problem.

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swalsh58
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December 15, 2018 - 8:58 am
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lbayorkie said
Im not familiar with these but do you need to remove the exhaust for the engine to sit on the lift platform?  

Your thinking of the wrong type I think. The type I mean are just like a small car ramp. You wheel the bike on to it and put it on the main stand, then clamp the front wheel. You can then remove the ramp you wheeled it up to get it on the main platform, and just pump it up to whatever height feels comfortable. I also have a small stool on wheels so I can sit down and be at eye level with the engine. It’s brilliant. If I find a pic of one I will post it

Current bikes......1958 D5, a 77 Suzuki GT250 and a 77 Honda CB125S. I have a 74 Kawasaki S3 400 and a B175 waiting for restoration. A 1980 Honda CB400N waiting for MOT.  Everyday ride is a 2011 Harley Davidson Sportster. 

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GlenAnderson
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December 15, 2018 - 11:34 pm
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In answer to the original question, that’s a D1/D3 plunger rear wheel. With a different brake plate it would also fit a D3 swingarm. 

As you’ve already deduced, you need a wheel with the same size rim and brake, but with a smaller diameter axle (1/2”, the same as the front) for your rigid frame. They do come up, maybe not ten a penny any more, but they are out there. You’d need the appropriate speedo drive too. 

I don’t know quite what “spacers” have been turned up, but it would be relatively straightforward to make some collars to allow the narrower axle and bearings to fit, and some spacers for elsewhere as necessary. Without pictures, I suspect that’s what has been done. 

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Mags 1
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December 16, 2018 - 2:39 pm
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I've got a rear axle that came with some other unknown early Bantam bits, the threads are 7/16ths BSF, it has the nuts both inside and out with it and I may be able to find a long spacer too. Where are you measuring your axle? On the threads or the untouched middle section?

I'm happy to sell it to you if it's what you need, it seems to me that you could use the wheel you have with different bearings fitted?

Four now on the road and at least several in bits.

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