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D1 Chainguard / Mudguard / tyre - lack of clearance
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paulkentuk
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February 21, 2020 - 1:06 pm
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Hi,

I've hit an assemly problem on my D1 'box of bits' project - after fitting the chainguard I have zero clearance between the Tyre / Mudguard / Chainguard.

Before fitting the mudguard the rear wheel was near as damn it, equal distance between the frame. I now know it wasn't perfectly in-line with the front wheel, (as I had counted the chain adjuster flats out equally initially in an attempt to get the alignment) but a fellow Bantam club member, (Glos area) brought over some long strips of ally recently & we saw it was out by about an 1". Correcting that alignment, (& with the chainguard fitted) would mean the tyre would rub along more of the surface of the mudguard !

Before fitting the Chainguard, clearance between the tyre & mudguard on the kerbside was 'sufficient' but way closer than I'd have liked. However running in a length of drive chain across the top of the sprockets, showed the chain bowed out rubbing against the mudguard; and the chain was actually out of line by about 2"in the middle section.

I figured the chainguard would 'push' the mudguard clear sufficient for a straight chain run, (I had it reinforced to prevent twist & it has allowed that 'push' effect) however that has compressed the mudguard onto the tyre !  

'Moving' the wheel further away from the chain run appears to be the requirement, but I'm pretty certain I have insufficient clearance there. I have an Excelsior 2:1 speedo drive on the rear wheel spindle, which looks to be 1/8" wider than a Smiths, but I need more than that clearance. A thinner shim rather than the lock nut on the speedo side of the rear wheel spindle, might give me another 1/8." 

I'd like to have attached some photos,(image sizes exceed upload limit though) but would be interested in hearing from D1 'project' builders for ideas !

Regards

Paul 

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sunny
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February 21, 2020 - 1:22 pm
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thers  never  been  much in  the    way of   gaps    on  bantams  , it sounds  like  you    have  a  basket   case  job    , find  anuther  club  member  with  the  same  modle   then  mack   lots  of   notes     thats  the   fastes  way ,

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Stoo63
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February 21, 2020 - 1:31 pm
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Hi Paul, maybe something like ** Please log in to view **

could help you resize your pics.

'52 D1 direct lighting plunger, '58 Square Four (project), '59 D1 direct lighting plunger,  '59 Tiger Cub, '60 5TA,  '76 FS1-E

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February 21, 2020 - 1:35 pm
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Sorry to say this Paul, but with that description of everything being so out of line, it sounds very much like a bent frame.

I may be able to tell from photos. Petrol tank off, side-on pic of top tube and front downtube in same shot. Front pic of steering head. Pic of rear end. Last two may not necessarily be clear enough to see any damage with all the components still bolted up(although with bad impacts, one can often see front wheel skewed off to one side).....but that side pic of the frame tubes is often a dead giveaway.

I can provide my email for you to send photos. Send me PM if you wish.

Of course, I hope that isn`t the case.... maybe just the wrong wheel/incorrectly rebuilt, hub assembly maybe has components out of order....but the description sounds like a case of altering one dynamic puts another way out...

Blue(MOT tester of old) 

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lbayorkie
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February 21, 2020 - 2:28 pm
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If you look at my restoration (LBAYORKIES D1) you will see the issues I had/have with mine. I dont think there are any solutions but it might make you feel better knowing that you are not the first person to have problems fitting the rear mudguard. 

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paulkentuk
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February 22, 2020 - 9:55 am
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paulkentuk said
Hi,

I've hit an assemly problem on my D1 'box of bits' project - after fitting the chainguard I have zero clearance between the Tyre / Mudguard / Chainguard.

Before fitting the mudguard the rear wheel was near as damn it, equal distance between the frame. I now know it wasn't perfectly in-line with the front wheel, (as I had counted the chain adjuster flats out equally initially in an attempt to get the alignment) but a fellow Bantam club member, (Glos area) brought over some long strips of ally recently & we saw it was out by about an 1". Correcting that alignment, (& with the chainguard fitted) would mean the tyre would rub along more of the surface of the mudguard !

Before fitting the Chainguard, clearance between the tyre & mudguard on the kerbside was 'sufficient' but way closer than I'd have liked. However running in a length of drive chain across the top of the sprockets, showed the chain bowed out rubbing against the mudguard; and the chain was actually out of line by about 2"in the middle section.

I figured the chainguard would 'push' the mudguard clear sufficient for a straight chain run, (I had it reinforced to prevent twist & it has allowed that 'push' effect) however that has compressed the mudguard onto the tyre !  

'Moving' the wheel further away from the chain run appears to be the requirement, but I'm pretty certain I have insufficient clearance there. I have an Excelsior 2:1 speedo drive on the rear wheel spindle, which looks to be 1/8" wider than a Smiths, but I need more than that clearance. A thinner shim rather than the lock nut on the speedo side of the rear wheel spindle, might give me another 1/8." 

I'd like to have attached some photos,(image sizes exceed upload limit though) but would be interested in hearing from D1 'project' builders for ideas !

Regards

Paul   

** Please log in to view **

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bantammad
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February 22, 2020 - 10:50 am
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Hi bantammad ere with the large discrepancies you have why not ask a fellow member to measure there bike rear wheel fitment it may help you resolve your issues your wheel rim of set is correct just a thought regards Les 

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paulkentuk
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February 22, 2020 - 6:39 pm
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bantammad said
Hi bantammad ere with the large discrepancies you have why not ask a fellow member to measure there bike rear wheel fitment it may help you resolve your issues your wheel rim of set is correct just a thought regards Les   

Hi Folk,
 
When I acquired the project, the steering head originally had one of the 'tangs' that restrict the ultimate full angle of rotation broken / missing, and after discovering Bournemouth Bantams existed at that time my son, (14 at the time) & I took the bare frame down with the steering head, to have it recreated. The chap discovered the lower frame tube had a tiny crack in a one of the welds near the centre stand whilst he was working on it, and repaired that for me at the same time. I recall he spent time chatting to my son when we picked the frame up asking about his plans for the build etc he mentioned it wasn't the first time he had seen that fault.  I'm pretty sure he would have said something if he had a suspicion the frame was bent when he was working on it, so I am hoping that isn't the issue.
 
My plan currently is to - 
 
A.) remove the mudguard and tank and check alignment as Blue suggested.
 
B.)  with the chain guard in place and the mudguard removed I'll run in the drive chain and check front / rear wheel alignment. 
 
C.) I've asked my Glos Rep to mail shot local D1 Plunger owners, (a new member attended our Area meeting last week) so I can compare wheel offset etc.
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NeilB
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February 22, 2020 - 7:21 pm
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Have the rear wheel been rebuilt at all? Have you had the tyre off? It could be that another part of the frame or that bolts on is bent / twisted, or it could be something daft like you put something inside another part rather than outside? Has it been shot blasted, or have you just taken apart and rebuilt?

Just trying to throw some ideas about. 

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NeilB
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February 22, 2020 - 7:38 pm
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If you're a bantam lub member and have a tape measure (and a lot of patience!) then full dimensions are on a data sheet for both the D1 / D3 rigid and spring frames. Also in the data sheets are some drawings of the rear plungers which would suggest they are sided so is that possibly the problem?

Still spit balling dunno

Rear wheel should NOT be centre line of the rear of the bike though. 

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February 22, 2020 - 7:43 pm
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Ah, broken lock-stop, there`s a possible clue.

Not bent frame related, but seeing you`ve had experience...there are often issues around the centre-stand/footrest bar attachment area, as this point of the frame takes a lot of strain. Worth noting that there`s a built-in fissure(not in the frame itself, but may appear to be so), that`s there from new, possibly as some sort of deliberate "expansion joint" in the welded bracketry on the frame. I was puzzled by this when I first started rebuilding Bantams, and it appears on all half doz relevant Bantam frames I have, but not checked the Rigid frame yet.

Back to checking for straightness, I`m envious of this chap`s ruler-cum-straight edge! .....** Please log in to view **....3rd pic down in post #53

Blue

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paulkentuk
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February 23, 2020 - 10:07 am
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NeilB said
If you're a bantam lub member and have a tape measure (and a lot of patience!) then full dimensions are on a data sheet for both the D1 / D3 rigid and spring frames. Also in the data sheets are some drawings of the rear plungers which would suggest they are sided so is that possibly the problem?

Still spit balling dunno

Rear wheel should NOT be centre line of the rear of the bike though.   

Thanks everyone for these ideas !

D1 Plungers wheel spindle brackets are indeed sided, as one supports the wheel's brake plate to stop it rotating.

I've had a good look through the members section and can't see a data sheet showing wheel offset.

Previous posts suggested it 'might be' - 32.5mm from the sprocket to the rim.

It's a brand new wheel built with an existing hub - which I now want to compare with an original D1 hub. I'm guessing it is 'likely' to be correct, as I had to drill rivets out to mount a new sprocket .

Assembly of the wheels / spacers onto their respective spindles, was done with the aid of the datasheets on the subject.

I'll continue with my  3 point plan above in the meantime.

Paul

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Number6
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February 23, 2020 - 10:59 am
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If it helps, looking at mine, D1 plunger, tank and seat off, mudguard off, wheel in situ, I can line up by eye the rear wheel with the top frame tube, and it shows the rear plunger loop part of the frame on the left side is definitely a bigger gap than the right, i.e. the wheel is NOT central between them. The left side does sweep out noticeably more. In fact it makes the rear half of the frame look lop-sided.

As a very rough guide, (I just measured it) I'm getting 1 inch between tyre and top plunger shroud on the right side, and 1.5 inches between tyre and plunger shroud on the left side. I'm doing this by squinting one eye shut down the side of the tyre, keeping the top and bottom of the sidewall of the tyre in line, then measuring the gap with steel tape measure.

Mike H --

Murphy's 4th law of motion states that any small object that is accidentally dropped will immediately hide itself under a larger object.

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bantammad
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February 23, 2020 - 11:01 am
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Hi bantammad ere here is a point it may be the correct wheel etc but is rim off set correct distance from the brake hub? I’ve had owned a motorcycle work shop MOT station we sent out wheel to be rebuilt by a main wheel building company here in the midlands I’ve had wheels returned 1/4 inch out wheel assemblers do make mistakes so don’t take it as red they are correct just trying to help regards Les 

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sunny
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February 23, 2020 - 12:20 pm
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you  ALL   should   be   cheking     your  wheell    ALINMENT   with a long  bord    and   pining  the  spokes  to    from  time to  time   for  you  owne  safty  and   befor   you send    the  wheels  of    for  new   rims   so  you  know   wot  the  offset   is  befor   thay   go away

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paulkentuk
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February 23, 2020 - 12:27 pm
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sunny said
you  ALL   should   be   cheking     your  wheell    ALINMENT   with a long  bord    and   pining  the  spokes  to    from  time to  time   for  you  owne  safty  and   befor   you send    the  wheels  of    for  new   rims   so  you  know   wot  the  offset   is  befor   thay   go away  

Good advice providing the bike is complete when you purchase it;  not so easy when it's a box of incomplete bits - but point taken.

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bantammad
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February 23, 2020 - 12:44 pm
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Hi bantammad ere well said Sunny couldn’t have put better my self happy days Les 

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February 23, 2020 - 12:53 pm
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Yeah, failed many on wheel alignment during my years as MOT tester. Worst was a GSX-R1100 brought in by a smug knuckle-dragging power-ranger geezer. His countenance soon changed when I showed him how far his alignment was out. Fetched the spanners and sorted it for him, because I`m nice like that. Good job he was a fair weather biker because I doubt he`d`ve stayed on that projectile in the wet.

Rebuilding basket cases: First check frame for damage/straightness.

                                Do a dry assembly, make sure everything fits and is inline.

                                Paint and reassemble.

                                Job done

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bantammad
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February 23, 2020 - 1:06 pm
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Hi bantammad ere l take it ya didn’t like the look of that geezer then Blue just joking happy days Les

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February 23, 2020 - 1:47 pm
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bantammad said
Hi bantammad ere l take it ya didn’t like the look of that geezer then Blue just joking happy days Les  

Haha Les nice one. He was actually a decent chap, friendly enough(friendlier than moi, hehe), togged-up with all the latest gear and thought he was the bees knees, but absolutely clueless, the alignment was WAY out and I was thinking, I could save a life here. No way did I want to see him ride off with the bike in that state....and it only failed on that, so was able to write him a pass cert out(straight after filling in a fail form), once I`d done the spanner work. I even used a torque wrench, not something I normally do, but it added a professional touch 🙂

I`ve mentioned it as an example over the years, especially to those new to biking...mainly as a safety talk....because it could be a life-saver.  

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