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Voltage Regulation
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rob4586
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December 27, 2016 - 11:00 pm
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All,

My bantam uses the original 6 volt positive earth arrangement. I have recently replaced the original Lucas rectifier with a modern solid state component, which works great. I am now looking at fitting a voltage regulator to avoid overcharging of the battery. I know you can buy a combined rectifier/regulator for around £30, but you can seem to buy generic single phase, 6 volt regulators for a lot less.

Am I missing something or am I correct in thinking it would be much cheaper to install a generic 4 pin voltage regulator? They're only about £5 and I probably know someone who has one lying around. 

Cheers,

Rob

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Alla
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December 28, 2016 - 12:27 am
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You don't need a voltage regulator, if the rest of the wiring is as it was, ie, not connected as 12v.  The original coil configuration uses a "series parallel" arrangement.  This means it switches various coils in or out when needed.  Lights, emergency, or just ignition and battery charge.  This is a very simplistic explanation, just don't worry about it.  Make sure all your earth connections are good, mount that rectifier on a good heatsink, and it should all be fine.

I lost my biking cherry to an M21 in '66. Bantams, Honda C110, NSU Quickly, A couple of Lambretta scooters, Cub, C15, D14/4, A65, Yam XS 650, 2012 Bonnie, B14 and restored D10. followed.... 

New additions.

Very large bike house!  1960. Matchless G12 CSR.  1957. 350 Matchless G3LCS. Ex Works, Scrambles.  Building, slowly, a Tribsa. Tribsa is now on hold, no frame No.  '66 Thruxton Bonnie.

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Peterg
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December 28, 2016 - 1:51 pm
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The only 'generics' I can see on E-Bay have very low outputs, typically 3-4 watts.

As Alla says, if you have the original wiring diagram, the switches limit ('control') output. The normal problem is that switching and actual usage (e.g. headlights in stop start running) result in a lack of charge to the battery.

The 4 pin MZ regulator looks the most suitable for your needs, but you would need to convert to a full output alternator (very easy). I assume the 3 pin units have an earthed body, so will be negative earth.

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rob4586
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December 28, 2016 - 2:05 pm
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Thanks chaps. I think I will leave it as it is for now, and probably just add a regulator if I decide to convert it to 12 Volt Negative earth (plenty of other jobs to do before that).

I had been looking at other sites than eBay for sourcing a combined rectifier/regulator rather than eBay. There is probably a nice business to have in importing these, hence what someone has done.

Thanks for your help again.

Regards,

Rob

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2tornot2t
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December 31, 2016 - 7:17 pm
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How about one of these Rob...** Please log in to view **....wow....(just bought one myself so will be able to report back later at some time...Also Note this is PWM device and is therefore extremely efficient, producing very little heat))

Designed for a solar panel input but you could supply it with the rectified DC...Looks pretty good spec at 10A....

As a side point and warning....if you attempt to use any simple electronic voltage regulator not specifically designed to charge batteries, make sure you include a diode (10A) in the output leg....(you can even parallel these up to double their rating):

** Please log in to view **

This is to prevent battery current feeding back into the circuit once the input drive voltage drops off which can often burn out the regulators power transistor in seconds....don't ask how I know...oops

Les

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rob4586
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January 8, 2017 - 10:21 am
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Hi Les,

Thanks for your extremely useless reply. I've now ordered one of those, alongside a diode, so it should be on its way 🙂 

I thought there must be a cheaper way of doing it, but I couldn't find what I was looking for, so thanks for that. 

The bit about trial and error made me laugh. However, sometimes it's the best way of learning! 

Cheers,

Rob 

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2tornot2t
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January 8, 2017 - 2:02 pm
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Oh Rob....the pain I felt when I read your reply starting : "Thanks for your extremely useless reply" sorry... embarassed

Oh dear.....What mistake have I made now I thought, but reading on a bit I see that's you might  have made a typo?...Hopefully they should work OK on the bike....I'll let you know when my one turns up probably in another week or so. If not we'll have to buy some Solar panels.....laugh OR

I'll buy the stuff off you  ....out-a-here

 

PS... As these controllers are designed to charge batteries the diode should not be required, in fact the voltage drop across them (0.6V ) might lead to slightly under charging otherwise no harm...you could always construct a bridge diode array from them if you wish, always handy for something if you're into electronics....ATB....

PPS....You might also want to add a smoothing capacitor to the output from your bridge rectifier that feeds the regulator. This will provide a pretty smooth DC supply into it rather than feed it with a series of half wave cycles or spikes....The spikes might upset the controller as it is designed to control pure DC from the solar panel....This might not be necessary but worth the coiple of quid extra  and little space required....You can buy two at nearly the same cost as one and you might even wish to parallel these up together for double the smoothing capacity: ** Please log in to view **...

Les

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Mags 1
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January 9, 2017 - 11:38 am
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2tornot2t said
How about one of these Rob...** Please log in to view **....wow....(just bought one myself so will be able to report back later at some time...Also Note this is PWM device and is therefore extremely efficient, producing very little heat))

Designed for a solar panel input but you could supply it with the rectified DC...Looks pretty good spec at 10A....

As a side point and warning....if you attempt to use any simple electronic voltage regulator not specifically designed to charge batteries, make sure you include a diode (10A) in the output leg....(you can even parallel these up to double their rating):

** Please log in to view **

This is to prevent battery current feeding back into the circuit once the input drive voltage drops off which can often burn out the regulators power transistor in seconds....don't ask how I know...oops

Les  

Les, I have no idea just why you'd add another diode to a bridge rectifier that already contains four of them?

We were always taught that a lead acid battery is quite capable of soaking up the odd spikes from the fluctuating dc that comes from bike rectifiers.

No capacitor needed at all then, never heard of one needed to be fitted in print, until now!

Four now on the road and at least several in bits.

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cocorico
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January 9, 2017 - 11:49 am
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Mags 1 said

2tornot2t said
...As a side point and warning....if you attempt to use any simple electronic voltage regulator not specifically designed to charge batteries, make sure you include a diode (10A) in the output leg....(you can even parallel these up to double their rating):...

Les, I have no idea just why you'd add another diode to a bridge rectifier that already contains four of them?...

Mags - if you read Les's post again you will see the comment I have highlighted in red, ie one of the devices he suggested as opposed to a 'simple electronic voltage regulator'. read-manualwink

1956 D3 in the back of the barn with 6 other bikes ahead of it!

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2tornot2t
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January 10, 2017 - 9:56 am
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Hi Mags... and thanks to Cocorico for assisting me...tip-my-hat

Let's go through this in stages....

Rob was asking if there was a cheap "non motorcycle specific" regulator that could be used to control battery charging. I assumed Rob had already got a bridge rectifier and wanted to add a regulator after this...so the raw DC from it would feed the regulator.

I then suggested a charger module unit to him designed to charge either 6V or 12V batteries.

I also mentioned arbitarily that if he used another type of voltage regulator module AFTER his bridge regulator that WAS NOT DESIGNED to charge batteries, it would need to be PROTECTED by inserting a diode on its charge leads that feed the battery...This is to stop current feeding back into the unit after the Bike has slowed or stopped and no charge voltage is being produced...The action is similar to the old "cutout" but in this case it is to protect the electronic voltage regulator module not a dynamo.

HOWEVER the control unit I pointed out IS designed to charge batteries and should be OK WITHOUT diodes.

I then added that it would be wise to add some smoothing with a large value capacitor AFTER the bridge rectifier that feeds the electronics  .....This is placed BEFORE the control unit to smooth the "chopped" DC and reduce any "voltage spikes" that might affect the electronics in the control unit....In electronics it is always best to err on the side of caution and the expense of doing so here is pretty minimal....

So the final circuit is .....Alternator.....Bridge Rectifier.....Capacitor.....Voltage control Unit.....Diode (optional)....Battery....(via ammeter) 

Hope this clears thing up...

Much obliged for your comments.

ATB...

Les

PS Bold font used to highlight important things....I am not shouting.....laugh

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Mags 1
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January 10, 2017 - 4:03 pm
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ok

Four now on the road and at least several in bits.

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AndieDini
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June 6, 2019 - 6:27 pm
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Hi..the normal problem is that switching and actual usage result in a lack of charge to the battery.The 4 pin MZ regulator looks the most suitable for your needs, but you would need to convert to a full output alternator.

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Sponge
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June 10, 2019 - 10:57 am
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This all started out very easy to understand and sensible advise. Now I feel as though I need to pay a consulting professor in electronic engineering to comprehend how to get a reliable charge out of a Bantam.

George Gibson of Navigation road fixed my B175 charging problem (battery always going flat),  with half a paperclip stuck inside the headlight shell. It took 5 minutes and the most technical peak of the conversation rose to a few unrepeatable swear words and a colourful observation about the weather. After that, the bike, gave no more problems. He charged me 10 fags for the fix and I now wish I knew exactly what he had done to it. I sold it on with the paperclip still in the headlight shell - the bloke who bought it ran the bike for many years with no probs.   

Sponge

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swalsh58
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June 10, 2019 - 11:54 am
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Sponge said
This all started out very easy to understand and sensible advise. Now I feel as though I need to pay a consulting professor in electronic engineering to comprehend how to get a reliable charge out of a Bantam.

George Gibson of Navigation road fixed my B175 charging problem (battery always going flat),  with half a paperclip stuck inside the headlight shell. It took 5 minutes and the most technical peak of the conversation rose to a few unrepeatable swear words and a colourful observation about the weather. After that, the bike, gave no more problems. He charged me 10 fags for the fix and I now wish I knew exactly what he had done to it. I sold it on with the paperclip still in the headlight shell - the bloke who bought it ran the bike for many years with no probs.   

Sponge  

Electrics is all the work of the Devil, specially on a Bantam. Forks are another...…..

Current bikes......1958 D5, a 77 Suzuki GT250 and a 77 Honda CB125S. I have a 74 Kawasaki S3 400 and a B175 waiting for restoration. A 1980 Honda CB400N waiting for MOT.  Everyday ride is a 2011 Harley Davidson Sportster. 

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cocorico
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June 10, 2019 - 2:29 pm
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swalsh58 said

Electrics is all the work of the Devil, specially on a Bantam. Forks are another...…..  

Jos Lucas, fondly known as 'the Prince of Darkness' (and provider of one of the finest apprenticeships in the world, at that time).

1956 D3 in the back of the barn with 6 other bikes ahead of it!

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swalsh58
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June 10, 2019 - 3:24 pm
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cocorico said

Jos Lucas, fondly known as 'the Prince of Darkness' (and provider of one of the finest apprenticeships in the world, at that time).  

An apprentice prince of Darkness, or electrician?? Not much difference now I come to think about it....

Current bikes......1958 D5, a 77 Suzuki GT250 and a 77 Honda CB125S. I have a 74 Kawasaki S3 400 and a B175 waiting for restoration. A 1980 Honda CB400N waiting for MOT.  Everyday ride is a 2011 Harley Davidson Sportster. 

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mike p5xbx
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June 10, 2019 - 4:33 pm
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well 2tornot2t never came back to report how will the solar panel regulator did Not work

IMHO the 6volt coil switching system worked will If it was as original with correct wattage bulbs good earth and correctly sized battery
I did over 20K miles on a B175 commuting to work in the 70s without a battery charge problem

D? - D10- D14 Bantams 350 AJS -500 Triumph http://bsanotru.....lfire.com/

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