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2 Stroke oil
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matt1996
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March 31, 2013 - 10:09 pm
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what is the best 2 stroke oil to use in a bantam for trials and what is the mix 

matt

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davidwb
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April 1, 2013 - 6:23 pm
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I always use the best synthetic I can find and use it at 2 cap measures per gallon (4.54609 litres......just showing off now because I am an engineer!!!! 4.5 litres is accurate enough).
I use Shell Advance VSX.
Not done trials, although keeping these old birds squawking is sometimes trial enough.
All the best,
David.

Una, my Dad's original 1949 D1.

Ariel 350 Red Hunter.

Moto Guzzi V7 Classic, for traveling to places a bit faster.

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bantam1954
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April 1, 2013 - 8:16 pm
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Two stroke oils are always an emotive subject and vary according to personal experience.

However its worth reiterating that when these bikes were manufactured the oil available was nothing like as good as the very basic oils available today. In many cases the old black (s**t) oil was nothing more than reconstituted monograde car oil! ...no wonder the bikes seized up.

I have always run "old" design two strokes on the best MINERAL two stroke available . Ive never used any version of synthetic or semi. The MZ I rode to Norde Kap and in the process did 6000 miles in total used the basic of basic oils.........in fact I had trouble obtaining it in the wild north of Norway !

All my past road and Trials Bantams have used basic mineral oils. To-date, I don't recall any seizures or main / big end/ small end failures.

When I was retained to ride Yamaha's off road I was asked to undertake numerous tests on two stroke oils. It has to be said, that for modern, close tolerance ( mainly water cooled) engines , the synthetic oil performed way better.

Its down to you what you choose to used , all I'll say is just remember what your riding and what its intended use is !old

D1 plunger comp, D3, Wassell Trials Bantam, BSA B31 rigid / tele, MZ 150, MZ-ETZ250, MZ250 sprint / hillclimb / track day , Yamaha XS650. 1925 Raleigh model 15, Matchless G3 rigid trials.

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BASIL
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April 1, 2013 - 8:40 pm
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Hi, I only use the best synthetic, to my mind it dos'nt burn like mineral does so it must do more lubricating, thats the way I see it, I use synthetic in all my vehicles have had a Citroen Dispatch van do 497.000 miles without burning a drop. Regards Basil.thumbs-up

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bantam1954
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April 1, 2013 - 8:59 pm
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Basil, your Citroen Dispatch van was designed to run on synthetic oil, which is actually the point. Id never run my 306 on anything other than its specified  semi synthetic oil. However the Mini engine ( proper Mini NOT some Bosh attempt) I'm building for a friend will run on bog standard 20/50.

If your acquainting the "smoke" as burning oil your misleading yourself. Smoke is a product of either the ash content of the oil OR most likely in our bikes cases, to much oil being introduced to the petrol when mixing. Adding to much synthetic oil can still produce a smoke screen !

Incidentally, adding "a bit for the road" actually does more harm than good as it has the effect of weakening the mixture in the carb. old

D1 plunger comp, D3, Wassell Trials Bantam, BSA B31 rigid / tele, MZ 150, MZ-ETZ250, MZ250 sprint / hillclimb / track day , Yamaha XS650. 1925 Raleigh model 15, Matchless G3 rigid trials.

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Jubilee
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April 2, 2013 - 12:07 pm
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Hello,

Matt1996 does not give the model of engine in his bike which does have a bearing on the ratio of 2T oil to petrol.

D1, D3 & D5 engines do not have all or some of the main bearings lubricated by the gearbox oil so a 25:1 mix should be used. D7 and all later engines do have all their main bearings lubricated from the gearbox oil so a 32:1 mix is okay. 40:1 and even 50:1 may by okay but damage does not occur overnight so it may take some time before you spot anything amiss and by then it could be too late. To swop a big end bearing is in the region of £180 to £200 plus post and is not a job that can be done at home by the owner.

Fully synthetic 2T oil is certainly the best to use. Forget all the nonsense about they were not designed to run on it because it had not been invented in 1948 or pre war in the case of the DKW version.

As an example, my 1954 D1 ran on synthetic without any trouble but I followed advice and switched to mineral 2T and also saved a pound or two in the process. The engine began to partially seize at speeds of 45 mph or over and did it about 5 times during the time I had the mineral 2T. By changing back to fully synthetic (Castrol Racing 2T) it has never had another seizure so that must prove how good it is (by the way, the engine had not been touched). Other plus's are less carbon in the silencer and engine over a very long period and no exhaust smoke.

Regards,

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BASIL
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April 2, 2013 - 4:20 pm
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Yes nowhere near the amount of carbon in the exhaust system but an increased amount of oil in the silencer so it must be going through the engine and doing what it is supposed to be doing, it will always be synthetic for me. Regards Basil.

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Cornish Rooster
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April 3, 2013 - 12:56 pm
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As always with this it is a case of read the opinions and make your own mind up !

For what it's worth here is what I do. On my D1 which has done around 4,000 miles now and in regular use all year around, I use a fully synthetic oil at around 32 to 1 and I'm not pedantic about an exact mix either. I'm the first to admit that you don't need to use a synthetic oil and good quality mineral is fine, but the way I see it a Bantam is fairly cheap to run (fuel,tyres, chains, brakes etc) so if I spend a bit more on oil it's no big overall running cost.

Am I an engineer also and some of our equipment has been changed over to synthetic grades from mineral oils mainly due to less or no carbonisation at high operating temperatures.

By the way my D1 is due to cover over 400 miles this coming weekend and I have no concerns about any seizures.

Phil

BSA Bantam D1 "150" in use regularly often as general purpose transport, quite a few other bikes as well. Cornwall Area Rep. 

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Bee175
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June 2, 2019 - 11:14 pm
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An old thread but thought I'd add my piece to it. 2 years ago on the way back from the Nottingham rally I had got 2/3 of the way home when a fill up was required. Put my fuel in, then chatted to someone and completely forgot to add my oil. It had been hard riding before the fill up due to headwinds, lots of 3rd gear moments on the flat.

So the last 60 miles of my journey, I have calculated that I was running on approx 55 to 1 due to adding no oil, and it was hard riding again due to continued headwinds, and me wanting to get home as quickly as possible. I was running on a modern semi synthetic at the time. The bike ran fine and has been running perfectly ever since. 

My point being that semi synthetic seemed to be good enough to lube the engine on a very hard days ride (7 hours in the saddle) and with much less oil than normal ( normal for me being 33 to 1). There was never a hint of over heating or nipping up. If anything I'd say it ran better than normal like that.

I used mineral oil from a classic oil seller when I first got the bike 4 years ago, but it was too smokey for me, although it ran fine. Tried the semi (as above) and the smoke disappeared. Have recently changed to a cheaper semi and I am now seeing a little smoke again. Will be buying a better semi or maybe even fully synthetic next time. 

Might even try a few rides at 50 to 1 just to see how it goes. I believe I've read on this forum somewhere that someone runs 50 to 1 all the time, so I won't  be the first.

BSA Bantam B175 1971 and BSA C15 1966

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sunny
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June 3, 2019 - 6:37 am
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the  50  cc  Mobolet      my   mum  had   startd  at  12 to   one   &  then after  some  years   was on 50 to one   it  was  in  the  hand  book

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cocorico
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June 3, 2019 - 7:03 am
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I think that it would depend on how long and hard you are going to run between stops. Don't forget that most of the oil in the mix is supposed to be separated out into the crank case in order to lubricate that area, so you probably had a reservoir of condensed oil down there. My view is that a slight wisp of blue from the exhaust is about right.

I'm sure you're right about our bikes being quite happy with a bit less oil in the mix, using modern 2T oils.

1956 D3 running, lights to sort. 7 other bikes in the Barn, including a Morini 250 now insured and on road testing.

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Bee175
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June 3, 2019 - 8:21 am
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Cocorico. Most of those that oppose using less oil say that jetting needs to be altered to compensate. I messed with my jetting a long time ago as I found a huge difference between ethanol fuel and non ethanol fuel and wanted to be able to run on both. I ended up with a 21 pilot, and a number 3 slide, but everything else standard for a B175, including the various 4 stroke parts. These 2 changes mean I can now run on both fuels quite happily.

So maybe those changes have helped me to run with less oil, or maybe they mean I should be running more oil, I simply don't know! 

The whisp of oil I am currently getting seems to have arrived at the same time as switching to a cheaper semi. I will go back to a supposedly higher quality one in the next day or 2, run the same mixture and see if that whisp remains or goes. Luckily I have someone to follow me and stare at my exhaust for a couple of hours, much easier that way!

BSA Bantam B175 1971 and BSA C15 1966

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Dodge62
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June 3, 2019 - 12:27 pm
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When I used to race two stroke TZ250s, my engine tuner would have us mix the oil (Castrol A747) at 20:1, rather than the more common 40:1 or even 50:1. He argued that it didn't in any way weaken the mixture because the oil gets burned as well, and oil actually has a higher energy content than petrol. So as long as you didn't put so much in that it would start fouling plugs, the more the better. Cost was a minor consideration then, considering the stupid costs of tyres and consumables (pistons and clutches every 4 or 5 meetings).

Then again we'd check the jetting by removing the cylinder head after every practice session, and sometime after each race, so it was fairly easy to compensate for different fueling. You might find that if you run more oil it actually starts to run rich, rather than lean.

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Bee175
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June 3, 2019 - 7:14 pm
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Dodge62. Interesting stuff. Is it a good comparison though between a highly tuned high revving TZR250 and a Bantam that's being ridden mostly at a gentle pace? Would be interested to hear your thoughts on that.

BSA Bantam B175 1971 and BSA C15 1966

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nickjaxe
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June 3, 2019 - 9:42 pm
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I have an old microlight aircraft with a 2 stroke Rotax...its quite old...the old handbook recommended a brand of mineral but with strict instructions to examine the piston rings every 50hrs of use to see if they are sticking.

They went on to recommend fully synthetic oil some years later when it was available...but in the last few years don't now recommend it unless is used more or less daily.

The reason...fully synthetic runs off internal surface readily...and now recommend semi-synthetic...for its better corrosion protection to internal surfaces...when not in use.

The modern stuff burns much more readily so far less carbon build-up so not requiring regular de-cokes and to keep the green party happy next to nil blue smoke...I run at 33/1...it would prob be fine at 50/1 but I chicken out I'm afraid.

My Micro runs at 5000rpm hour after hour under much more strain than my Bantam engine so I'm happy with my Rock Oil PP2.

Thats in my B175 with an all roller bearing engine.

My Bantam video              https://www.you.....jpOFmzRZRI

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Bee175
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June 3, 2019 - 10:39 pm
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Hi Nick. How long ago was it that someone realised that fully synthetic wasn't hanging onto the internals when not in use? Perhaps that problem has been overcome nowadays?

BSA Bantam B175 1971 and BSA C15 1966

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nickjaxe
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June 3, 2019 - 10:52 pm
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That is true...but I dont know the answer.

Going back around 10 years I suppose.

My Bantam video              https://www.you.....jpOFmzRZRI

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cocorico
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June 4, 2019 - 7:57 am
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All the above opinions are right - for the circumstances they apply to. If I was Nick, I would make sure my microlight engine was always on top form as I wouldn't want any engine problems whilst hanging way above the ground. Similarly with Dodge's racing Yamahas, if you’re on the track with high revs all the time, you need to be spot-on, even if you strip the engine every few outings.

For our more humble Bantams, with their unstressed engines which most of us only use for pleasure, at low(ish) speeds, I don't think we need to worry too much whether we use cheap or expensive oil, or whether we use the manufacturer's recommended mixture or not.

As long as your Bantam is not seizing or filling the neighbourhood with blue smoke, carry on with your preferred mix (I use about 3% plus a dash of paraffin in the Supermarket 95 in my D3).

1956 D3 running, lights to sort. 7 other bikes in the Barn, including a Morini 250 now insured and on road testing.

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Bee175
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June 4, 2019 - 8:03 am
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3% here too. What's the paraffin for? Didn't know you could still get it!

BSA Bantam B175 1971 and BSA C15 1966

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nickjaxe
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June 4, 2019 - 9:26 am
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Used to be good in Derv in very cold temps...help stop it waxing...suppose it good also for lowering the octane rating of petrol.

bom bom bom bom...Esso Blue...is that showing my age?

My Bantam video              https://www.you.....jpOFmzRZRI

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