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Little Advice Please ?
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trialsrider46
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December 4, 2018 - 7:20 am
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Good day all, little help/advice needed here. ? I have a D14/4 engine which runs just great on tick over and at stand still it revs out very nice. However when you slip it into gear and set off it all goes to mush and will not rev. It all basically goes flat. It has new electronic ignition and a rebuilt carb. ? any ides please before I start to rip things apart. 🤔

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johnsullivan
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December 4, 2018 - 8:33 am
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In view of recent posts elsewhere ...are you setting off in first? You need to see if you are have the air slide closed..IE with the lever pointing at your chest .check the coil for heating or swap it out.Did you rebuild the carb? or have it done? .If the bike starts readily we will say the timing is ok .let the bike warm up ..check the plug and indeed substitute a new or known good .If it is a hard starter . ..now ..over to the electronic ignition experts on here .

67 D10. and a D7    2007 Honda Hornet FA. Suzuki 89  DR 250S, Sinnis SC 125. 78 Honda 90  75 Montesa Cota 247

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Sponge
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December 4, 2018 - 8:45 am
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First gear is down one from neutral.   If you are used to pre-unit BSAs you will find it is the other way around. 

Gearbox aside I had the same problem with my D14/4 trials bike which had been standing for a few months. Even when warmed up there was no power.  The symptoms you describe would also indicate a fuel issue.  I drained the crankcase first - just to be sure it wasn't that.    I then removed the carb and cleaned it out (with my reading glasses on) and discovered a blocked main jet - a bit of grit or something which cleared when I blew through it with a pushbike pump.    After that it started straight away and ran perfectly.  

Suggest, drain down the crankcase then check your carb before you start taking the engine to bits.

All the best

 

Sponge

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trialsrider46
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December 4, 2018 - 8:53 am
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johnsullivan said
In view of recent posts elsewhere ...are you setting off in first? You need to see if you are have the air slide closed..IE with the lever pointing at your chest .check the coil for heating or swap it out.Did you rebuild the carb? or have it done? .If the bike starts readily we will say the timing is ok .let the bike warm up ..check the plug and indeed substitute a new or known good .If it is a hard starter . ..now ..over to the electronic ignition experts on here .  

John thanks for the reply, I do not have a choke fitted. Yes the carb has been rebuilt. I think it will be something like the main jet that is not working correctly. I will try running the bike a tad leaner and see how it goes. I am sure it is a carb issue.  I do not have a problem with my trials bantam that runs just great all be it on different jetting. 

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trialsrider46
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December 4, 2018 - 8:56 am
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Sponge said
First gear is down one from neutral.   If you are used to pre-unit BSAs you will find it is the other way around. 

Gearbox aside I had the same problem with my D14/4 trials bike which had been standing for a few months. Even when warmed up there was no power.  The symptoms you describe would also indicate a fuel issue.  I drained the crankcase first - just to be sure it wasn't that.    I then removed the carb and cleaned it out (with my reading glasses on) and discovered a blocked main jet - a bit of grit or something which cleared when I blew through it with a pushbike pump.    After that it started straight away and ran perfectly.  

Suggest, drain down the crankcase then check your carb before you start taking the engine to bits.

All the best

 

Sponge  

Hi sponge, I will strip the carb and give it a good clean. My trials bike does not have any issues and runs really sweet. However that has totally different jetting. Maybe it might be worth copying that. 

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johnsullivan
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December 4, 2018 - 9:19 am
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I found in my box of odds that came with my D10 some new jets which were nowhere near the correct size for the marking...Indian knockoffs ?and a needle with a taper so bizzare ..all in neat little polybags.I now boil jets or leave overnight in acetone .

67 D10. and a D7    2007 Honda Hornet FA. Suzuki 89  DR 250S, Sinnis SC 125. 78 Honda 90  75 Montesa Cota 247

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Sponge
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December 4, 2018 - 12:51 pm
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Clean your carb and see it it makes a difference.  If that fails then it might be worth taking the carb off the trials bike and trying it on the road bike. This will confirm your thinking  and give you peace of mind that you have found the source of the problem. 

Put the carb back on the trials bike and set-to the blocked carb with a magnifying glass to check everything. 

I found a monobloc needle in a concentric carb once. Got the bike because the owner could not get it to run properly.  Not surprised it would not run properly - this confused me at first - you have to check everything to be sure.

Take care

Sponge

 

 

  

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trialsrider46
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December 4, 2018 - 1:00 pm
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Sponge said
Clean your carb and see it it makes a difference.  If that fails then it might be worth taking the carb off the trials bike and trying it on the road bike. This will confirm your thinking  and give you peace of mind that you have found the source of the problem. 

Put the carb back on the trials bike and set-to the blocked carb with a magnifying glass to check everything. 

I found a monobloc needle in a concentric carb once. Got the bike because the owner could not get it to run properly.  Not surprised it would not run properly - this confused me at first - you have to check everything to be sure.

Take care

Sponge

 

 

    

Sponge, that will be my way forward. I actually have a spare carb with trials jetting so I can easy have a play with things. Regards Ken.

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johnsullivan
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December 4, 2018 - 1:38 pm
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The simplicity and interchangeability of Amal carbs blessing and curse....

67 D10. and a D7    2007 Honda Hornet FA. Suzuki 89  DR 250S, Sinnis SC 125. 78 Honda 90  75 Montesa Cota 247

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AdrianS
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December 4, 2018 - 4:29 pm
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Does the bike start ok?

It does sound like a fuelling problem. 

I would however:

1. Check the plug and check the timing.

2. Have a good look at the carb. Strip it and clean all the passageways in it with carb cleaner or compressed air. Check all the jets etc for sizing.

Check main jet isn't blocked - that will allow tickover but the bike will die when opening throttle.

I gad a similar problem a few years ago - the needle had come out of the clip retainer and had fallen into the main jet. The bike would start but died when the throttle was touched!

 

Hopefully will be something simple!

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trialsrider46
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December 4, 2018 - 4:43 pm
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AdrianS said
Does the bike start ok?

It does sound like a fuelling problem. 

I would however:

1. Check the plug and check the timing.

2. Have a good look at the carb. Strip it and clean all the passageways in it with carb cleaner or compressed air. Check all the jets etc for sizing.

Check main jet isn't blocked - that will allow tickover but the bike will die when opening throttle.

I gad a similar problem a few years ago - the needle had come out of the clip retainer and had fallen into the main jet. The bike would start but died when the throttle was touched!

 

Hopefully will be something simple!  

All good advice and I am/will be following that process. I am sure I will sort it with some playing around. Cheers for replying Ken.

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nickjaxe
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December 4, 2018 - 8:11 pm
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How was it running before you fitted the Electronic ignition.

My Bantam video              https://www.you.....jpOFmzRZRI

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trialsrider46
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December 4, 2018 - 8:37 pm
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nickjaxe said
How was it running before you fitted the Electronic ignition.  

it was not a runner. Been out of the bike a few years. After fitting ignition it started 2nd kick and runs and ticks over nice. However slip it into gear and the revs go hay wire with little power to pull away. I can only think it is the carb setting. I will try a few different settings and see how things go. I have the exact same jets as fitted to my trials bike which runs and rides amazing on electronic ignition.

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nickjaxe
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December 4, 2018 - 9:06 pm
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Have I got this right.

It wasn't running so you fitted electronic ignition and then it ran but not right...

Electronic wont fix an underlying problem.

My Bantam video              https://www.you.....jpOFmzRZRI

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trialsrider46
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December 4, 2018 - 9:15 pm
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nickjaxe said
Have I got this right.
It wasn't running so you fitted electronic ignition and then it ran but not right...
Electronic wont fix an underlying problem.  

The engine came with a stripped down bike. I wanted electronic on it instead of points. Never even tried to run with the points. I have not tried to fix any underlying issue. As far as I know this the first time this motor has run for years.

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trialsrider46
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December 5, 2018 - 4:21 pm
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Well thanks all for your help. Bike is now running fantastic. So for your info. I changed all the jets to match my trials bike which is a Bantam. It now runs just Amazing.

Job Done.  For those who might ask, Main Jet 180, Needle 105, Pilot 30. Number 3 slide. clapthumbs-up

Ken.

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johnsullivan
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December 5, 2018 - 7:32 pm
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good egg 

67 D10. and a D7    2007 Honda Hornet FA. Suzuki 89  DR 250S, Sinnis SC 125. 78 Honda 90  75 Montesa Cota 247

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Piquet
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December 5, 2018 - 8:45 pm
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I wonder if this was a case of mixing 2 & 4 stroke parts/bodies?

I'm not a complete idiot ............................................ some parts are missing.

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trialsrider46
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December 6, 2018 - 8:02 am
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Piquet said
I wonder if this was a case of mixing 2 & 4 stroke parts/bodies?  

Not sure, if you speak to Burlen (Amal) they basically say there is no difference. The 105 needle jet is really the only thing that is often fitted to 4stroke. But in truth it matters not what you fit as long as it works. I spent a good few hrs testing the jetting on my trials bike. It needs to be spot on for quick action throttle response. In fact I have just gone up on the pilot to a 32 which has improved the 2nd gear under load response. All good fun and interesting to learn what works etc. 😊

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Piquet
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December 7, 2018 - 2:47 pm
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trialsrider46 said

Not sure, if you speak to Burlen (Amal) they basically say there is no difference. The 105 needle jet is really the only thing that is often fitted to 4stroke.

That's not entirely true, Amal may have meant that there is little to choose between the two configurations that were fitted, but you cannot mix and match the two and four stroke parts. There are 3 differences between the 2 types fitted to Bantams, all of which must be fitted as a set. Due to the positioning of the jets with the 2 or 4 stroke jet holder, needle lengths differ too.

All of the above is not helped by the confusing listings on the Amal Site where they list a 2 stroke needle jet for a B175.

They do differentiate between the two types in their Carburettor Settings book, listing a 2 stroke needle jet for the D14 (R626/12 or 13) and a 4 stroke needle jet for the B(D)175 (R626/17) but make no mention of the other parts required to complete each set-up, so at first glance it appears the only difference is the needle jet.

In addition, regarding the Concentric Carburettor, Amal themselves state,

Amal say

2 Stroke and 4 Stroke bodies are not interchangeable and will not run correctly if used on the wrong type of engine.

Have a look here ** Please log in to view **

and at the further links contained therein.

I'm not a complete idiot ............................................ some parts are missing.

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