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Ibayorkie's D1
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lbayorkie
Otley, West Yorkshire
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April 21, 2018 - 2:24 pm
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I finally got around to removing the rear wheel today. Problem definitely seems to be with bearing on speedo side. Having taken the wheel apart I think there may be two problems. Firstly, looking at the workshop manual I seem to be missing some components and secondly I am thinking the bearing spacer is too long- its 2 1/2 inches. The bearing doesnt seem to be seating properly and theres nothing really holding it in place.  The wheel is now at my home so if anyone needs further scrutiny I can take it apart again. Hope some wise person  out there will be able to help. Remember this is a 1950 D1 rigid.

 

Alan[Permission to view this image is denied]
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lbayorkie
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April 22, 2018 - 2:49 pm
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OK. Spent more time scratching my head on this one today. The BSA service sheet shows the components for the D1 Rigid rear hub. My interest is only in components 2 to 14.  When I took my hub apart 13 (hub felt retaining washer) was missing, as was 7 (speedometer drive washer). Also item 10 (hub bearing locknut) looks very different from the one on the service sheet, it doesnt have a thread nor does it have a hexagonal head (its round) futhermore the internal diameter is far greater than the spindle. 

I tried fitting some spare washers (not quite right internal diameter) and replaced the hub bearing locknut with a spare item 4 (hub spindle nut). This seemed better but when I added item 9 (hub spindle locknut) the speedo drive wouldnt fit because the two nuts simply stuck out too far.

I have included and image of me holding what was fitted as item 10 (hub spindle locknut) so you can see its not a nut, in the image the felt washer is inside the retaining cup and the 'item 10' is shown passing through it. Also an image of the the hub spindle locknut in place on top of the bearing, washer, felt washer, and retaining cup before the 9 (hub spindle locknut) was put in place.

Incidentally the bearing is a push fit, it doesnt need to be drifted into place.

Hope someone can help.

 

Thanks

Alan[Permission to view this image is denied]
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Blue Heeler
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April 22, 2018 - 4:10 pm
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Hi Alan,

You`ve done a pretty impressive job of explaining and providing pics,but there`s no real substitute for seeing the job 1st-hand when it`s been bodged to that extent by the re-builder.I`ll see what I can do,but my Rigid rolling chassis is buried under a pile of bikes&spares currently,so I will be going by the details on Draganfly,although I expect you are making good use of the info available on here as a paid-up member.

I can see what you`re trying to do and it may well work,but for peace of mind the correct items are worth tracking down and fitting.....especially the flanged nut-spacer jobbie. Hopefully these small parts shouldn`t be too expensive.I will reacquaint myself with the parts list later,if nobody with a stripped Rigid rear hub turns up in the meantime.

You say that r/h bearing is a push fit.Have you cleaned all the grease off and tried again....you may find it has some rock to it,a sign it was left somewhat free-floating.You can use a centre punch to put little indentations around its locating housing,to enable more of an interference fit.

That centre spacer looks about right,but of course it could well be a DIY effort and the wrong length.Is it a trick of the light or does it have a slit down its length?If so,it`s probably the right one.Clean the grease off it and check the ends haven`t been chopped about.

I`ll check more with the parts list later.

Is that bearing a new one?I`d fit sealed ones,much less messing around.

Blue

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sunny
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April 22, 2018 - 6:33 pm
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hi   the forth  item   down   in  post  no  22  looks to  be spacer  p/no 90/6095   on  the  brack plate  side  for  pluger and  swingarm   frams  and  looks  too  big  and  slopy  on  your  smaller  axle   or  have  i  got  it  wrong  ,, as the  spacer  on  yours  is   the  same  part no  both  sides  of  the  wheel

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lbayorkie
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April 22, 2018 - 8:31 pm
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Thanks for getting back to me to you  both.

Blue heeler, there is no slot. As far as my improvisation I was just trying nearest things I had that to hand to get a better idea of how it 'might fit'. The part I substituted looked almost the same as the one in the exploded diagram so was worth a look.

I agree with you though, to ask Draganfly to provide all the parts  need for the r/h side and I can then be sure I have exactly the right parts. My concern is they might not have them, I can but ask.

Sunny you are completely right, it is too big and sloppy, as if its made for a larger diameter spindle- plus as I say its clearly a spacer and not a nut. Not sure if your identification of the part is correct as I cant find a service sheet for the rear hub of a D1 plunger in my book but it sounds very plausible. 

Will phone Draganfly tomorrow.

 

Alan

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Piquet
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April 22, 2018 - 10:16 pm
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There were two different diameter spindles for the D1, perhaps you have a mixture of parts from the two types?

I'm not a complete idiot ............................................ some parts are missing.

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lbayorkie
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April 22, 2018 - 11:10 pm
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Thats possible of course but just how I work that one out im not sure. Its getting a bit complicated. maybe if I took it to Bantam John he might point me in right direction. think he is probably closest person to me who would know.

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sunny
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April 24, 2018 - 8:50 am
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hi   i  lost  my   size page  in  my   labtop    so  if  you  get  time  can  you tell  us  all  the  sizes  of  the  nuts  and  spacers  in  post  number   22   please  thanks  

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lbayorkie
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April 24, 2018 - 7:38 pm
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I only stated size of the bearing spacer tuber which was 2 1/2 inches

I have decided the problem is the bearing retainer nut and the steel felt retaining washer. Sourced nut from Bournemouth Bantams and washer from Draganfly. Hopefully these will do the trick otherwise its back to the drawing board!

Would definitely still appreciate any feedback on bearing spacer dims though.

Thanks

Alan

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sunny
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April 24, 2018 - 8:27 pm
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hi  Alan   the  bearing spacer   sounds  correct  a  2 1/2"   and i  think  its  two  pacer/ nuts  p/n 5546   mite  have been  superseded  by  spacers  without   threads     thanks     

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lbayorkie
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April 29, 2018 - 7:32 pm
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1950 Bantam D1 Rigid

I took the whole rear hub apart today to try to understand it better and fit some new bits and sealed bearings.

The main problem was the fourth item down in post 22. The internal diameter was far too large for the spindle, and in any case it wasn't a nut.

I bought the correct part from Bournemouth Bantams and fitted it this weekend. Its better but the spindle still moves about a bit but I think this is because the bearings are a bit loose in the hub- they drop in quite nicely by gravity but should really be an interference fit. Spindle also moves about 1mm side  to side through the hub. Is this to be expected on an old bike?

I also found out today that the speedo side needs a larger diameter bearing than brake side. The sealed ones I bought were same size- the smaller diameter so its back to the shop I bought them from. Shame as I wanted to finish the job today. By the way is there any need to fit the steel felt retaining washer, felt washer and felt retaining cup when sealed bearings are fitted? I presume the hub bearing thrust washer (90-5536) must still be fitted on the brake side?

I have included an image of a part I took off the brake side- problem is I cant remember what order it goes back in, its not in the exploded diagram I have which is a bit strange. Anyone recognise it?

Determined to get this bike on the road next month![Permission to view this image is denied]

 

Alan

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lbayorkie
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April 29, 2018 - 9:47 pm
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Having thought again about having different sized bearings on the same spindle I took the hub apart again. Guess what, the bearing is t[Permission to view this image is denied]
he same size but as you will see from the image, someone has constructed a band to increase the external diameter so it fits into the hub. What I dont get is why the hole in the hub so big in the first place. 

Anyway the 'band' seems to have been filed to make it fir and so although a good fit its not perfect which is probably why there's some rocking.

Has anyone come across this before? I'm a bit stuck now as to what my options are.

Help!

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sunny
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April 30, 2018 - 9:27 am
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hi  the  Hub is made  of parts  that   also fit  biger  wheels  of   roller  bearings    so  the  band  is   fited   to make  up  the  space  rite  from the  start   ,the  parts page  has  the  same  bearings  ,,fit  the  felt &  its cup  so  you  know  were  it  is    ,  im  not  shor  the  2 1/2 "  S/d tube  is  corret   it my  be  too long    ,  the  nut   in  post 32   looks like  a  spacer  but canot  find   one  in  parts  pages    it  has  paint  on  it  so  it  must  have  been  on  the  outside of  the  hub , you  are  doing very  welll   well  done

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lbayorkie
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April 30, 2018 - 12:50 pm
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Thanks for getting back to me. 

So you are saying the collar (band) that is shown in situ on the bearing should actually be counted as an integral part of the hub?  The exploded diagrams/parts list I am working to (for D1 rigid) doesn't mention this at all. Furthermore its not a very good fit inside the hub.

I thought until you replied that maybe the hub had been damaged internally and had been machined to a larger diameter to make it perfectly round again and the collar had been made to make the bearing fit.

I will see if there is any more feedback on this topic and the mystery spacer, which by the way has a raised section at one end which fits perfectly into the hole in the brake plate, so I assume it fits on the outside of the brake plate.

Thanks again.

Alan

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sunny
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April 30, 2018 - 3:36 pm
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hi  yes  the  BAND   may  have  been  a good  fit    at  the start  wen it  was at  BSA  but  i  carnt  say for  shor  its just  thsat  some  wheels  used  Roller  bearing     wich  are  biger  on  the  outside    ,,, you  canNOT  replace  the  ballbearing  with a  roller bearing  in a back wheel  as  thay need  some   free  play  to   keep   cool   

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lbayorkie
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May 21, 2018 - 1:50 pm
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Quick update.

 

Not having the time or facilities to do it myself, I had the rear hub re-built. I am told that the problem was the wheel/hub was from a D1 plunger and someone had tried to fit a D1 narrow spindle, which sort of makes sense as mine is a D1 rigid. 

I was told that a plunger hub required slightly larger diameter bearings than a rigid (?) and that is why neither of the bearings were an interference fit. Still doesn't explain why the speedo side was probably overall about 1mm too big for the bearing and the chain side approximately 2mm too big. The previous owner obviously accepted the slack fit on the speedo side but on the chain side he had made the collar to fit around the bearing to make it a better fit, unfortunately he botched it so it was still not a good fit.

The spindle has no play in it at all and it now back on my bike. However all is not well as the mudguard doesn't have sufficient clearance from the tyre. At the top of the guard I can get my fingers between the tyre and guard on the speedo side, but theres almost no clearance on the chain side.

The mudguard looks quite new so I suspect its one of the dodgy Indian made ones. I believe used ones are not available so I need to work out how to make do with the one I have. I've already tried bending and 'humouring' it but it just seems to bounce back to its original shape and its just not possible to adjust the wheel to improve clearance, in fact moving the wheel in one direction seems to create a problem somewhere else!

Chain adjuster is almost up to max, so I may need to have a couple of links removed (or more?)

Just as an afterthought, how much play should there be in a chain for a D1 rigid? (I have been advised amount for a plunger but suspect it may be different)

Wish me luck!

 

Alan

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cocorico
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May 21, 2018 - 2:43 pm
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If you look in the 'Members' Area' - Instruction Manuals - D1 Owners' Manual 1951 you will see the figures for both rigid and springer-frame models. There's only 1/4" difference anyway.

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lbayorkie
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May 21, 2018 - 5:34 pm
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Do you refer to the bearings?

 

Alan

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cocorico
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May 21, 2018 - 5:52 pm
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No

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lbayorkie
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May 24, 2018 - 1:49 pm
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Thanks, I actually have an owners manual but wasnt to hand. Bike and bits are stored at a relatives- what a pain!

I'll get a chain splitter and remove the links.

As far as the lack of mudguard clearance goes I think next course of action will be to fit a washer or two between the spindle and frame to move the wheel across slightly.

Thanks for you help.

 

Alan

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